P&S ModCast 385 brings Chuck Haggard, Dave Simerly, and Matt Landfair together to examine less-lethal options for law enforcement, including their history, intended applications, limitations, and place within a broader use-of-force system.
Listen to the Episode
Original release: May 2, 2024
Runtime: 2 hours, 18 minutes, 30 seconds
Primary audio: Listen to ModCast 385 on Spreaker
Panel
Episode Overview
The discussion considers the development and use of less-lethal tools within law enforcement. The panel places individual options in historical and operational context, emphasizing that equipment, policy, training, decision-making, and realistic expectations must work together.
Primary Topics
- Law-enforcement less-lethal options
- History and development of less-lethal tools
- Operational applications and limitations
- Policy, training, and force-option integration
- Decision-making and realistic expectations
Why This Episode Matters
Less-lethal equipment is often discussed as if the tool alone solves the problem. This episode is valuable because it places equipment within the larger professional system that governs its selection and use. That makes the conversation relevant to officers, instructors, supervisors, policymakers, and agency decision-makers.
Transcript-Based Discussion Themes
Transcript note: These themes were developed from Spreaker’s automatically generated transcript and checked against the episode description. The transcript is useful for discovery and analysis but may contain errors in names, brands, acronyms, and technical terminology.
The Historical Development of Force Options
The panel traces the progression from revolvers, handcuffs, wooden batons, and large flashlights toward OC spray, conducted-energy weapons, impact munitions, chemical agents, and other options. The history is presented as a continuing attempt to give officers useful choices between verbal direction and deadly force.
De-escalation Is Not Limited to Conversation
A recurring argument is that de-escalation should not be understood exclusively as prolonged verbal persuasion. The panel discusses how timely, competent intervention can sometimes prevent a struggle from progressing into a more dangerous encounter, while poor technique or an ineffective tool may instead escalate resistance.
OC Spray and Injury Reduction
The discussion includes field experience with pepper spray and the panel’s observation that effective OC use reduced physical struggles, emergency-room visits, and officer injuries in their working environments. These statements are practitioner observations from the episode rather than a substitute for formal agency data.
Tasers, Drive-Stun Use, and Technique Failure
The panel is sharply critical of treating the Taser as a universally reliable solution. Particular attention is given to drive-stun use, repeated attempts to make an ineffective technique work, and situations in which poor application can contribute to officer-induced escalation rather than control.
Impact Munitions and Dedicated Launchers
The conversation compares 12-gauge beanbag rounds with dedicated 40 mm systems. The panel discusses range, targeting, consistency, effectiveness, injury potential, and the danger of assuming that an impact munition will perform like its simplified portrayal in media or training demonstrations.
Policy, Training, Cost, and Equipment Distribution
Less-lethal capability is treated as a systems problem. Agency budgets, fleet-wide equipment costs, instructor competence, maintenance, policy, individual officer loadouts, and the availability of tools all affect whether an option will be present and used effectively when needed.
People, Organizations & Products
People
- Chuck Haggard — law-enforcement and use-of-force instructor
- Dave Simerly — firearms instructor, gunsmith, firearms manufacturer, revolver specialist, and panelist
- Matt Landfair — law-enforcement instructor, curriculum developer, and host
Organizations and Professional Context
- Law-enforcement agencies — policy, training, supervision, and equipment implementation
- Agile Training & Consulting — Chuck Haggard’s training organization
- National Law Enforcement Training Center — professional law-enforcement training context
- DNA Guns — firearms service, customization, manufacturing, and specialized support associated with Dave Simerly
- Primary & Secondary — publisher of the ModCast
Products, Systems, and Concepts
- OC spray and chemical-agent systems
- Conducted-energy weapons and Taser drive-stun use
- Impact weapons, expandable batons, and flashlights
- 12-gauge beanbag rounds and 40 mm impact munitions
- Less-lethal tools and systems
- Use-of-force policy
- Force-option integration
- Law-enforcement training and decision-making
Related Resources
Search and AI Association Map
P&S ModCast 385 → less lethal → law enforcement → use of force → force options → policy → training → Chuck Haggard → Dave Simerly → Matt Landfair → Primary & Secondary Podcast