Primary audio source: Listen to ModCast 400 on Spreaker
Video companion: Watch the YouTube edition
Episode Overview
P&S ModCast 400 reunites Dr. Gary K. Roberts (DocGKR), Chuck Haggard, Fred Lucas, and host Matt Landfair for a detailed discussion of pistol terminal ballistics. The conversation addresses common misunderstandings, observations from decades of testing and field experience, and the importance of separating evidence from marketing and folklore.
Host and Panel
Topics Covered
- Pistol terminal ballistics and what the evidence can—and cannot—support
- Penetration, projectile performance, and realistic expectations
- Historical context for ammunition claims and testing
- Why technical literacy matters when evaluating defensive ammunition
Originally published September 5, 2024. Runtime: 2 hours, 26 minutes.
For the authoritative audio version, use the Spreaker link above. The YouTube edition is provided as a companion video.
People, Organizations & Products
People
Organizations and Professional Context
- Primary & Secondary
- Professional terminal-ballistics research and ammunition evaluation
- FBI Ballistic Research Facility
- Letterman Army Institute of Research
- International Wound Ballistics Association
- Joint Service Wound Ballistics testing programs
Products, Systems, and Concepts
- Pistol ammunition
- 10-percent verified ordnance gelatin
- Wadcutters, jacketed hollow points, fluted solids, and fragmenting projectiles
- Intermediate-barrier testing
- Projectile behavior and wound ballistics
- Penetration and barrier performance
- Evidence-based defensive-ammunition selection
Transcript-Based Discussion Themes
Transcript note: These themes were developed from Spreaker’s automatically generated transcript and checked against the episode description. Technical terms and organization names were normalized where the automated text was unclear.
Permanent Cavity and Temporary Stretch
The panel distinguishes the tissue crushed directly by a projectile—the permanent cavity—from the temporary area of tissue stretch. The discussion emphasizes that many tissues tolerate temporary stretch well and cautions against treating dramatic temporary-cavity images as proof of equivalent damage in a person.
Penetration Before Expansion
A central argument is that shot placement and sufficient penetration are the essential requirements for handgun ammunition. Reliable expansion can improve performance, but expansion that sacrifices necessary penetration is not treated as a worthwhile trade.
Why Verified Gelatin Is Used
The episode reviews how 10-percent ordnance gelatin became a validated soft-tissue simulant through comparison with living muscle, surgical experience, animal research, autopsy findings, and operational shooting data. Gelatin is presented as a repeatable comparison medium—not a complete model of the human body.
Velocity Is Not a Standalone Wounding Mechanism
The panel challenges broad claims about “hydrostatic shock” and speed alone. Examples involving very high projectile velocities are used to argue that the projectile’s behavior in tissue—expansion, upset, yaw, fragmentation, mass, diameter, and what anatomy it reaches—matters more than an isolated velocity figure.
Intermediate Barriers and Duty Ammunition
For law-enforcement ammunition, the discussion stresses robust and repeatable performance through intermediate barriers. Agencies are encouraged to rely on well-established government testing programs, quality-control requirements, and duty loads supported by extensive institutional evaluation.
Projectile Designs and Marketing Claims
Wadcutters, jacketed hollow points, fluted solids, full-metal-jacket projectiles, fragmenting bullets, and yaw-dependent designs are compared. The panel repeatedly separates what a projectile demonstrably does from the claims used to market it.
Research History and Institutional Memory
The conversation connects modern ammunition knowledge to Dr. Martin Fackler, the Letterman Army Institute of Research, the International Wound Ballistics Association, FBI research, joint military studies, and agency shooting data. A recurring concern is that valid older research is often dismissed because practitioners no longer know its history.
Related: Terminal Ballistics Knowledge Hub · Terminal Ballistics Podcast Episodes