Personal experience on several guns and bottles of fireclean.
Lube! How? What? When? What environments?
- Thread starter Matt Landfair
- Start date
Coming from an LE perspective, thanks to all of you for sharing your insight on this topic as it has helped me, my department, and my team significantly as of late.
This is clearly old news on this forum, but I thought it would be worth mentioning anyways. Our department has been using Militec for the last few years (slow to change), however, I was recently involved in an OIS where it was raining pretty hard and the carbine was fired enough that it got pretty hot and immediately following the shooting the safety was extremely stiff to move and about 15 minutes after the initial shooting the safety detent was stuck and caused the safety to be frozen on safe. It remained like that for days.
The long and the short is that it was easily replicated on several other guns, and we were seeing the issue at training as well any time it was moist at all. I figured out that the safety detent was seizing up in it's channel and wouldn't move. The Militec seemed to gel up when mixed with water and heat causing the safety to stick wherever it was left. Since I was the one who did the work replicating it and researching it, I referred to the recommendations of this forum and the command agreed to change. We stripped the Militec off and are now using Slip2000 EWL. Have not had any problems since and had not been able to replicate the previous issue.
Gives us some peace of mind, so thank you.
Our Militec has been thrown in the trash.
This is clearly old news on this forum, but I thought it would be worth mentioning anyways. Our department has been using Militec for the last few years (slow to change), however, I was recently involved in an OIS where it was raining pretty hard and the carbine was fired enough that it got pretty hot and immediately following the shooting the safety was extremely stiff to move and about 15 minutes after the initial shooting the safety detent was stuck and caused the safety to be frozen on safe. It remained like that for days.
The long and the short is that it was easily replicated on several other guns, and we were seeing the issue at training as well any time it was moist at all. I figured out that the safety detent was seizing up in it's channel and wouldn't move. The Militec seemed to gel up when mixed with water and heat causing the safety to stick wherever it was left. Since I was the one who did the work replicating it and researching it, I referred to the recommendations of this forum and the command agreed to change. We stripped the Militec off and are now using Slip2000 EWL. Have not had any problems since and had not been able to replicate the previous issue.
Gives us some peace of mind, so thank you.
Our Militec has been thrown in the trash.
I started with Militec years ago, based on a recommendation from a very knowledgeable guy. I think it used to be thought of as really good stuff but then, like you guys, it was found to have issues. The only problem I ever had with a gun I used it on was a Noveske blowing a gas ring at under 3k rounds. I think it actually happened on two separate occasions and one time it locked the gun up pretty well. I started doing a little research and found that others had reported issues with Militec. Who knows if that contributed to the gas rings, but I moved on to Slip after that. In my experience, Slip dries up faster than I’d want which is what caused me to try FireClean, but I’ve never seen or heard issues with Slip while others have had problems with FC, as discussed here. Slip is probably one of the safest bets to go with so hopefully it works out well for your department.
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From a lubrication standpoint....guns are not very demanding systems....
They are low temp, low duty cycle, low pressure and are maintained frequently.
Frankly.... it doesn’t matter what the hell you lube them with..... as it’s going to get replaced or cleaned in 500-2000 rounds anyways.
I’ve ysed everything from RemOil, clp, ATF, froglube, cooking oil, 10w30, Teflon lube,3-in-1,etc.......I have not been able to tell a difference in performance between any of them.
When it comes to firearms.....lube is lube.
“Designed for firearms” is marketing BS..... most of the gun lubes you find on the market are just rebranded general purpose lubes sold at a HUGE markup.
I can almost guarantee 90% of the companies selling gun lubes are not doing ANY chemical engineering at all..... why would they? Why would they spend a boat load of cash developing a lube that does the exact same thing as an existing product.....like I said, when it comes to firearms, they aren’t demanding systems.
I run 10w30 almost exclusively.... works great and have never had an issue from it
I will give you my humble opinion based on my experience, I will say that not all lubricants perform the same. When teaching armorer & instructor courses, we approach the maintenance and lubrication from the perspective that if lives depend upon the firearm, then it needs to be set up and maintained so it runs with 100% reliability in all field conditions possible. With this in mind, field conditions will vary, and the field conditions need to be taken into great consideration when looking at what lubricant works best, and what maintenance needs to be done.
I am not an engine mechanic, and by no means an expert or engineer on engines, but I do know several people who are engineers that work with engines and lubrication I can say that in conversations with several Engine Mechanics, and Mechanical Engineers that do research on engines and machines, there is a huge difference in engine lubricants when comparing conventional motor oils to many of the synthetic oils. Some of the things that have been found is engines run slightly cooler when ran on synthetics, and that there are less metal particulates found in the synthetic oils as compared to convention oils when the waste oil is analyzed. You will also find that engines generally go longer between oil changes when using synthetics, as compared to conventional oils.
I do know a few things about firearms. We lubricate weapons for 2 main reasons, first to reduce friction, the second is to protect from corrosion.
When it comes to corrosion protection, some lubricants have a rust inhibitor and some don't. I can tell you from experience that Breakfree CLP lasts about 30 days on our police patrol car guns for the environments we have in Minnesota. Remoil and Hoppe's oil lasted about 6 weeks. Militec-1 didn't perform well in our colder months, as I would find rust on our Benelli M1-90 ghost ring sights a week after they were wiped down, where you could still see that the parts were wet with the Militec-1, but there was rust coming through. The best corrosion protection we have found for our Officers has been Slip2000 "EWL" Extreme Weapons Lube.
When it comes to erosion protection, we need a lubricant that reduces friction where metal rubs metal. Basically all lubricants will reduce friction, until they either freeze, dry up, burn up, or get built up with fouling to the point they are no longer acting as a lubricant. Any liquid like water, soda pop, beer, will act as a lubricant to reduce friction until it evaporates. What I have found is that lubricants like Hoppe's oil and Remoil that work well on a bolt action rifle or shotgun, don't seem to fair as well on a semi-auto AR15 or works on a select fire M16 / M4 due to it burns off faster from the heat generated on these rifles.
When teaching armorer and user courses on the AR15 / M16 weapons system, we have people insert a just the bolt carrier (No bolt, cam pin, firing pin or retaining pin) into the upper receiver, and you will find that it should freely move back/forth through the upper receiver, only riding on the rails of the bolt carrier that are located at 2, 4, 8, 10 O-Clock, with the large flat section of the bolt carrier at 6 O-Clock pushes over the hammer during the cocking cycle.
Now insert a complete bolt carrier assembly into the upper receiver, and you will see that it travels forward into the receiver freely until about the last 1/2", which is when the 7 Bolt Lugs enter the Barrel Extension Lugs, and the Bolt rotates clockwise (If you are behind the gun shooting it), causing friction. When you pull the bolt carrier rearward, it will have the same friction for about 1/2" as the 7 Bolt Lugs rotate clockwise and unlock from the Barrel Extension Lugs, then the bolt carrier assembly will travel rearward freely.
What this shows is that the bulk of the friction is in the 7 Bolt Lugs locking and unlocking with the Barrel Extension Lugs, and this is why the 7 Bolt Lugs need to be wet with lubrication IMHO. So the use of a quality lubricant where you have friction is what is needed. My preference is a lubricant that doesn't gum up or burn off, and will run well in hot and cold weather. All lubricants will run in hot weather, until many of them evaporate or burn off, hence my preference for a synthetic. Where a lot of lubricants fail is in colder weather, CLP doesn't work well in cold weather and is why the Military specs in their the manuals that in cold weather to use LAW. I am in Minnesota, where we have 5-7 months of winter, and we can change from warm to sub-zero in the same day or week, so I know that my staff will not usually take the time to do daily weapons lubricant changes as weather changes, so I prefer to use and have our staff use a lubricant that works in warm and sub-zero temp weather, that also has a good rust protection qualities, and that lubricant for use is Slip2000 "EWL" Extreme Weapons Lube.
Slip 2000 EWL vs CLP side-by-side testing by Pat Rogers
Slip 2000 "EWL" vs CLP Testing
Colt 6940 with 15,000+ Rounds
CY6
Greg Sullivan "Sully"
SLR15 Rifles
TheDefensiveEdge.com
(763) 712-0123
@Greg "Sully" Sullivan FTW! Seems a great majority of our professional end users (myself included) witness these issues and agree with Sully. We also have good info against using motor oil for guns. It can work, but there are better options.
Jeff Lester
Newbie
Sully is spot on. For anyone who thinks lube is lube, I’d ask why you don’t run wheel bearing grease, or hypoid gear oil, in your engine’s crankcase? Reread Sully’s post.
.....an internal combustion engine is not a firearm......stop posting stupid analogies like this......an Engine lubing requirements are VASTLY more demanding than a firearms.
with proper application and proper maintenance, you can in fact use anything as lube........ive run wheel bearing grease in well below freezing.....frog lube the same way.....never had an issue....frankly ive never had a lube based failure......ever...... im really not sure what people are doing to their guns to get "lube failures" as often as they claim.
pretty simple......with thicker greases...apply sparingly.
with thinner lubes.....apply often and liberally......really not rocket science here folks.
keep your weapons in a clean state and you wont have issues with gumming or fouling buildup either.
Any firearm i depend my life on is spotless when being carried......and is inspected 2x a month
now regarding corrosion....you will see difference between lubes.....
now i have NEVER seen a firearm that has not been neglected rust on internal components when using any sort of lubrication........but if you have a habit of using your guns in salt water and leaving them in the trunk of your car for months on end, then yeah, anything is going to rust.
for external surfaces.....mine are all generally caked under 4-8 layers of krylon.....so i dont experience much surface rusting.......but for my duck guns....i will wipe the exterior surfaces down with froglube, from what ive seen its great for corrosion resistance.......ive never had an issue with it.
i mean if spending $10 for a couple ounces of "gun lube" tickles your fancy and makes you sleep at night.....go ahead......its not not going to work....
im of the opinion that if your gun is "lube sensitive"......its probably not something you should be carrying for the defense of your life.....because your gun isnt "lube sensitive".....its just flat out unreliable
it makes you wonder how people managed to lube firearms before the advent of "gun specific" lubes....
Jeff Lester
Newbie
Mcameron, obviously you are more qualified than I am to render a judgement on this issue. It’s too early on a Sunday to get into a heated internet debate with someone as professional as yourself. Have a great day.
Dude if you can’t have a discussion without resorting to petty passive aggressive posts.....you might want to reevaluate some things in your life....
I really don’t care what lube you use... because in my experience... it all has worked the same.
But if you can actually point to some evidence that “ gun lube” is somehow better than 10w30.... or any other lube.... I actually would like to see it
Ryan St.Jean
Regular Member
How- On the moving parts of the gun and areas you want to protect from corrosion. In particular the AR-15 platform runs better wet.
When- After range trips I will clean and lube guns. Periodically every few months or so otherwise. I could stand to tighten up on that.
What- Any reasonable option. I think applying a good amount of lube to the right places at a reasonable interval is a lot more important than what kind of lube is being used.
When- After range trips I will clean and lube guns. Periodically every few months or so otherwise. I could stand to tighten up on that.
What- Any reasonable option. I think applying a good amount of lube to the right places at a reasonable interval is a lot more important than what kind of lube is being used.
@Mcameron
Since you refer to it so often, what exactly is your experience/background?
What, specifically, is your experience in arctic conditions?
Also, please note that Jeff is a Moderator, as indicated by the green identifier under his screen name. Keep it civil.
Attached are photos of an HK416N, after it had sat in a soldier's barracks locker for a few days after normal use during field training in winter in Norway, with the (no longer issued barrel cap) attached. Condensation is a thing. You speak very authoritatively on things you seemingly have little to no experience with, as far as how rust occurs. The weapon had been lubed with BreakFree CLP, and the activity conducted was nothing extraordinary.
If you have never had a lube failure of any kind, then perhaps your experience base is not as vast as you think?
Improper lubrication is the second most common cause for malfunction in military small arms, after bad magazines.
I have seen what is required to work, spanning environments from the arctic in Norway to the moon dust deserts of Afghanistan. The lubrication approach between the two extreme environments are the same, yet different in some areas.
Since you refer to it so often, what exactly is your experience/background?
What, specifically, is your experience in arctic conditions?
Also, please note that Jeff is a Moderator, as indicated by the green identifier under his screen name. Keep it civil.
Attached are photos of an HK416N, after it had sat in a soldier's barracks locker for a few days after normal use during field training in winter in Norway, with the (no longer issued barrel cap) attached. Condensation is a thing. You speak very authoritatively on things you seemingly have little to no experience with, as far as how rust occurs. The weapon had been lubed with BreakFree CLP, and the activity conducted was nothing extraordinary.
If you have never had a lube failure of any kind, then perhaps your experience base is not as vast as you think?
Improper lubrication is the second most common cause for malfunction in military small arms, after bad magazines.
I have seen what is required to work, spanning environments from the arctic in Norway to the moon dust deserts of Afghanistan. The lubrication approach between the two extreme environments are the same, yet different in some areas.
Attachments
Justin11b11m
Newbie
In the army we used regular CLP, it worked for it was. I used it for my personal weapons originally because it’s all I had known. I then swapped to fireclean on my personal weapons and found that it gums up fairly easy if the guns sit for any length of time. We used CLP and then swapped to frog lube at work for the Sig P226’s (when we carried them) and on our M4’s. Same issue as with fireclean. We swapped back to regular breakfree CLP. For my personal weapons I swapped over the Slip 2000 EWL since it’s a heavier lube and was recommended for carry weapons or weapons that sit. (Or machine guns/select fire weapons)
I wipe mine down after every use. It’s been common for me since it was required in the military and after every in service training while working at different nuclear sites. For guns that sit, probably every 4-6 months a good wipe down should happen just to check for rust and corrosion but I honestly haven’t followed that myself. For dusty environments (ie Iraq, powder dust storms), we used graphite (?), a dry lube. It still accumulated dust but it was definitely better than wet lube. (2004-2005, might’ve changed since then.)
I wipe mine down after every use. It’s been common for me since it was required in the military and after every in service training while working at different nuclear sites. For guns that sit, probably every 4-6 months a good wipe down should happen just to check for rust and corrosion but I honestly haven’t followed that myself. For dusty environments (ie Iraq, powder dust storms), we used graphite (?), a dry lube. It still accumulated dust but it was definitely better than wet lube. (2004-2005, might’ve changed since then.)
What have i said that was “ uncivil”...
And yes I do have functioning eyes... I am well aware he is a moderator....does that mean I am unable to disagree with him?
As for my experience.... I am a former NCAA rifle shooter.....have a degree in mechanical engineering....certified firearms instructor....and compete in smallbore prone.
I average over 100k rounds down range a year.
I have no experience in “ arctic conditions”....I do live in the north east where is near or below feeezing a good part of the year.... frankly “artic conditions” are not something 99.9 % of the population ever has to deal with.
Regarding your images.... that is why I don’t let a wet firearm sit for several days before cleaning.....that is neglect and pure laziness....I can guarantee that amount of corossion didn’t happen in just a “couple days” on a properly maintained firearm.
what have i said specifically that was "disrespectful"?.......if your panties get in a wad because someone dares disagrees with you.....thats a personal problem.
ive not attacked anyone, ive not questioned anyones background......im here offering a different opinion,based on my experience, education, and background (isnt that what forums are for?) and some of yall are having a bitch fit about it
Jeff Lester
Newbie
Mcameron,
You stated “...stop posting stupid analogies like this...”
You don’t know me. You lost your sympathetic audience with your opening statements.
I expect the engineers I interview to be a bit more civil during a discussion, especially when there are differences.
You have the right to your opinion. I have the right to mute you.
Have a great day.
Jeff Lester, P.E.
thats it?!
comparing the needs of a firearm to the needs of a engine is stupid...
im not calling you stupid.....im sure youre a good guy.......but using the "engine" argument doesnt make sense.
thats like saying "nascar uses 6 point racing harnesses, so all passenger cars need 6 point racing harnesses"
and you can hire based on whatever criteria you want......but if you want the people in your machine shop to respect you.....youd better not show up in a suit and "talk like an engineer"....they hate that shit
also its your forum.....if you want to mute people for disagreeing with you, thats your choice to make.....