Shotguns, why?

#81
Understood.
I am picturing the scenario where you are getting engaged from the sentry car after you punched the tickets on his homies or from down the block. Or your neighbor's daughter is getting light up, so you pull overwatch and tag the threats from the comfort of your porch. Still totally justified.
 
#83
I love shotguns....Its pretty much the hammer of God from 50 yards and in. However my 870 sits in rack 10 out of 10 long gun deployments. I would like to deploy the shotgun in vehicle situations but due to where my long guns are located in my cruisers trunk, getting to them isn't always an option.
 

Sunshine_Shooter

Regular Member
Network Support I
#84
Instinctively, the gun banners realize this as well. The bans tend to target the most effective tools, and ignore the less efficient ones.
"Do not attribute to malice that which is adequately explained through ignorance." Gun bans are not based of efficacy of the weapon, but how many people can be motivated to go out and vote, and fear motivates people.
 
#85
I know this in an old thread, but I’m wondering about the validity of the shotgun in my job. I’m a full time patrol/ K9 LEO and part time SRT operator. My set allows 5.56 carbines and 12 gauge shotguns. Our 5.56 rounds are 62g federal soft tip rounds and I have reason to not be confident in that round. The only rounds we are authorized to carry for the gauge are slugs and supersocs. I have been carrying my 870 unloaded with the supersocs in a side saddle. Our policy dictates that if we deploy LL, we have to have another Ofc verify there are no lethal rounds in or on the shotgun, watch us load each LL round and we cannot have any Lethal rounds on us. I’m considering getting a 1301 for slugs. I know there are situations where I would rather deploy my m4, such as clearing a house or SRT deployments. But I feel like the shotgun would be a good choice for vehicle engagements and man with gun calls.

So what do the experts think? Is the shotgun a waste of time if I can only use slugs?
 

jnc36rcpd

Regular Member
#86
One sort-of-advantage of still being on the job is that you're stuck with what you're issued or authorized. In your case, you're not confident with the issue rifle ammunition and buckshot is not authorized. Since you're concerned about vehicle engagements, I'd load up with slugs and be done with it.
Policy precludes you rolling out of the car and beanbagging someone so you could load up the 870 with slugs and leave the Supersocs in the trunk until you have time to go through the loading protocol. On the other hand, if you like the 1301, it is probably safer to have separate platforms for lethal and less-lethal rounds.
I suspect the majority of our officers with shotguns load primarily with slugs if they don't also have rifles.
 

MrMurphy

Regular Member
#87
I'd still go AR. Even with less than optimum ammo, a 2 second reload for 30 more is good. FMJ whacked a lot of bad guys for decades, even without the newest super bullet, it will work.
 
#88
You may not want to share but I'm curious about your issues with the ammunition your department supplies. I could come up with anecdotal evidence condemning about any ammo or proving it to be a death ray for that matter. I know when it's personal experience it's difficult to look at it scientifically but maybe discussing it here with the vast amount of experience some of your concern could be alleviated. IMO an AR15 is the answer if I was forced to shotgun it would be slugs and some kind of real sights preferably a red dot.
 
#89
You may not want to share but I'm curious about your issues with the ammunition your department supplies. I could come up with anecdotal evidence condemning about any ammo or proving it to be a death ray for that matter. I know when it's personal experience it's difficult to look at it scientifically but maybe discussing it here with the vast amount of experience some of your concern could be alleviated. IMO an AR15 is the answer if I was forced to shotgun it would be slugs and some kind of real sights preferably a red dot.
It’s a little early to post the details on an open forum, but I see what you’re saying. It’s easy to blame the ammo when you’re not getting the desired effect. We are evaluating that round and may consider something else. Maybe I’ll just keep doing what I’m doing with the 870 as a dedicated LL gun.
 
#90
I think the shotgun still has a role in Home defense, especially as a stand off gun while guarding a door. Buck can be devastating and a solid hit in center mass can end a situation quickly.

Outside the house, I’d rather have a carbine.

My HD shotgun is a mossberg 500 youth 20 Gauge with an 18 inch barrel, light, buttstock shell holder, and an additional 5 shells on the receiver. I use 1 buck. 20 gauge does every thing 12 can do inside a house with lighter recoil and overall wieght.

 
#91
Are they still an effective option versus modern carbines? WHY?

Coming from a civilian (my job is .mil but this is for civilian stuff) perspective

I would humbly submit these are two different questions.

Are shotguns effective. Yes. Home/ civilian defense situations where a short barreled pump shotgun isn't adequate are very rare. At best they are anecdotal. Capacity is an issue but in house shotgun fights don't generally last long.

Are shotguns superior to modern carbines. No. An AR-15 (or whatever) has a lot more bullets, is semi automatic, is much faster to reload and is accurate out to hundreds of meters. An AR-15 is a much better weapon for anti personnel use.

Shotguns have 3 unique advantages.
1- They are cheap. A $300 or under shotgun with a $40 streamlight and a $5 neoprene buttstock shotshell holder will do the job just fine in the vast majority of situations. A $2,000 AR-15 has some advantages for sure but at a significant cost. Some folks can't afford a $2,000 AR so they are far better off with a $350 equipped Moss/Rem pump gun than nothing.

2- Dangerous Game. If bears are on the concern list a shotgun is a good answer.

3- Legal basically everywhere. Modern carbines optimal for self defense aren't legal everywhere in the US. Pump shotguns are basically legal anywhere you can have a gun.

Unless a person falls into one of those 3 situations I would say they are better off with a modern carbine.
 
#92
After having watched the Modcast on shotguns and taken two shotgun courses with FPF Training. I definitely believe the shotgun still has a place in today's time. Home defense is definitely a great place it dominates with most violence per trigger press. As Clint Smith has said in his ballistics Youtube video, "shotguns at the right range with the right load will blow chunks out of the bad guy that you will need a snow shovel to clean up." So a basic 870 within 15 yards of HD distance will definitely dominate that space with Federal Flite control. A single shell of that load will definitely have more incapacitation in that trigger pull time frame with more control than anyone's fast trigger finger on an AR. Then there is the political correctness factor, it is a pump action shotgun, It is $600 fully equipped going into the evidence locker, you may have fired two shots at most, that is not going to look bad for you in court or your pocket book. Where as you have scary black rifle, $2000 fully equipped into the evidence locker, and 16 rounds fired, that definitely does not look as good to the uneducated jury. My primary bedside gun used to be a double stack polymer 9mm, now it is a 870 with Vangcomp +1, Magpul furniture, and Surefire X300U light. I have 5 rounds of Federal Flite control in the gun and another 6 shells, 5 federal flite and one slug, in the side saddle. If as a civilian in a Home Defense Situation, with shot liability, need for target Identification, need more than that, as Rob Haught said, " I should have brought friends." It is a different tool with still a major place in the arsenal of anyone interested in self defense with a firearm.

This is my current 870. Eventually will send the barrel to Vang Comp for the barrel porting and backboring, and get it an RMR and new sights when Aridus releases the RMR CROM.
 

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Sunshine_Shooter

Regular Member
Network Support I
#93
@AtlasTinMan Why do you have Flight control in your home defense gun? I though that stuff was designed to keep the pattern tighter for longer distances than normal buckshot. Do you prefer a tighter pattern, or am I mixed up?
 
#94
They can dispatch anything from Quail & Dove, to any large angry mammal in North America to include humans and can obtain a firearm to do so for the quarter of the cost of a good carbine. Although it is limited, misunderstood, & labor intensive it is still the most violent weapons system available. I like Clint Smith’s take when he said something like “a shotgun at the right range, with the right load, will physically remove a hunk of shit from your opponent and throw that shit on the floor.”
 

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#95
@Sunshine_Shooter, Flite Control does do that. The main reason I do that is for consistency of pattern and to give myself the most margin to get the most pellets on target in case I do not perfectly center up on them. If I have a 6 inch pattern at 15 yards and have it 2-3 inches off center, I have less pellets missing the target, than if I have 1 foot pattern and am off center by 2-3 inches.
 
#96
@Sunshine_Shooter

Here are a couple pictures of the Qualification results of a Nighthawk 870 I had from FPF Training Home Defense Shotgun and Shotgun Skills. Home Defense Qualification was I believe 35 shots of just bird and buckshot from 5 to 15 yards with tests of shooting reloading under time constraint. Shotgun skills qualifications was about the same as Home Defense plus at 20 and 25 yards having to shoot about 10 slugs additional at each distance. But the slug shooting was slow fire I believe. Point is that under all that stress and differences in distance, you can see I kept most of my shots within center mass fight stopping area of in regards to the violence of the shotgun effectiveness. If I had to go off center without the help of the tightness of Flite control, I may have a pellet(s) that will miss and become a liability.
 

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