Shotguns, why?

#41
Non-pro here.

I think the shotgun has some advantages over a carbine for home defense. Professional use? Probably not.

The shotgun comes into its own as a fixed position defensive weapon, and for targets on the move at standard 1/2 acre lot distances.

I live alone and my bedroom door is rule 4 clear. If I get the "crash in the night", it's: electronic ear pro jacked into my phone, call cops, point shotty at door and wait for the cavalry. Most civilians who talk about what to clear their house with are living in fantasy.

Speaking of fantasy, it's on the outside range of probability for me, but if someone is leathally threatening me from the street or the backyard, my odds of hitting increase with buckshot. I'd also prefer to put a slug or two into an engine block than some 5.56 if I have to. Once again, both are possible but not probable.

New conventional wisdom I disagree with:

Shotguns hold less ammo. Fewer rounds? Yes. Fewer projectiles? Not hardly. I keep my 590 cruiser ready with 7 rounds of 9 pellet. That's 63 projectiles vs 30 in my AR. It would be more if I could get my hands on some Federal #1 flite-control.

Flite-control=slug. Yes those pellets stay together in flight, but they all go their separate ways when they hit. Multiple stacked wound tracks=serious damage afaik. It seems everyone cringes at instructors who advocate spreading pistol rounds across a target, but wants that spread from a shotgun. It doesn't make sense to me. You still have to aim.

I bought my AR 2 months before Sandy Hook and am just now getting to where I can afford ammo and classes. That might change my mind. I want to take some shotgun classes, but they're few and far between from what I've seen. Not sexy anymore, I guess.

I probably wouldn't want to use one in uncertain environments, but I think shotguns have their place for HD.

This is just one newbs opinion and is subject to change with new facts. My lane is narrow and slow, but that's why I'm here.
 
#43
So you re saying that a single .33 pellet, weighing 36+/- grains, traveling at 1200fps is the equivalent of a 55-75grn 5.56 at 2700-3000fps?

Increased hit probability...based on the spreading of shot? So, now even fewer pellets hit the target, and the ones that don't, go where? It's not the same as shooting #2 at passing ducks.
The majority of combat shotguns and shotshells focus on decreasing the spread of shot over distance.

Everyplace I've been trained with a shotgun, it was still a minimum of 2 rounds in a standard defensive response...so, yea...less ammo.

I would prefer to take out the driver then the engine block, or the rim(not tire).
 

Steve F

Sentinel Concepts
Moderator
#44
shotguns are subjective ammo etc
for the home owner I recommend when they pattern test, they find a load that covers a 6-8 inch area at their max distance in there home
also to check profile patterns, for LE use i like FED flight control as it extends the max effective range of the shotgun to beyond traditional limits
 
#45
So you re saying that a single .33 pellet, weighing 36+/- grains, traveling at 1200fps is the equivalent of a 55-75grn 5.56 at 2700-3000fps?

Increased hit probability...based on the spreading of shot? So, now even fewer pellets hit the target, and the ones that don't, go where? It's not the same as shooting #2 at passing ducks.
The majority of combat shotguns and shotshells focus on decreasing the spread of shot over distance.

Everyplace I've been trained with a shotgun, it was still a minimum of 2 rounds in a standard defensive response...so, yea...less ammo.

I would prefer to take out the driver then the engine block, or the rim(not tire).

Tom Givens told me last week that of all the shotgun shootings that he has investigated and researched the only time it took more than one shot to make a stop was if the first shot was not placed into the vital areas. He said he had never seen one take more than two shots.
 
#46
Good for Tom, I guess.
I've been told by others, that they've seen the 12g fail in both the one shot stop category and the easy to hit with category. At least one of them is a former member of a very hard and active swat team, and winner of multiple gunfights. But he did that with Hydrashok ammo, so..........the internet won't listen to him.
 
#47
Good for Tom, I guess.
I've been told by others, that they've seen the 12g fail in both the one shot stop category and the easy to hit with category. At least one of them is a former member of a very hard and active swat team, and winner of multiple gunfights. But he did that with Hydrashok ammo, so..........the internet won't listen to him.
Good for your unnamed guy I guess.

Maybe his experience has been different. I personally will choose to listen to someone like Tom Givens along with other guys like Erik Lund, Darryl Bolke, and the pathologist at the state crime lab. I guess the interweb won't listen to them either.
 
#49
If you want to make this a dick measuring contest over who's sensei is cooler, I guess we can do that.
I won't mention his name, because no one would recognize it, and he probably wouldn't be to happy about it. I can tell you he's a retired Sgt from the Albuquerque SWAT and ROP teams. His resume is every bit that of those mentioned, and probably then some.

But that's not the point...

I thought the whole 'one shot stop" thing has been thoroughly put to bed. I think its Pat Rogers who's says nothing held in two hands is guaranteed to produce a one shot stop.

Less ammo is less ammo
 
#51
If you want to make this a dick measuring contest over who's sensei is cooler, I guess we can do that.
I won't mention his name, because no one would recognize it, and he probably wouldn't be to happy about it. I can tell you he's a retired Sgt from the Albuquerque SWAT and ROP teams. His resume is every bit that of those mentioned, and probably then some.

But that's not the point...

I thought the whole 'one shot stop" thing has been thoroughly put to bed. I think its Pat Rogers who's says nothing held in two hands is guaranteed to produce a one shot stop.

Less ammo is less ammo
My apologies. I should have known better than to try to have a logical discussion. I hope you have a wonderful day.
 
#52
Oh, please...........we were having a logical discussion.

You throw out a comment gleaned from the experience of another, which for some reason you think has more weight then the experience of someone I've trained with. Cool, I can understand that, you don't know the guy...I don't know your guy. Opinions vary.

There are all kinds of truly experienced guys out there. From old school cops that worked one of the toughest cities in the USA, to young GI's that have a few tours in the mideast. No one knows their names.

The earlier poster's comments make it sound like he thinks one round of 12g is the equivalent of 8-9 rounds of 5.56.....I don't know any"expert" shotgun guru or otherwise that uses that kind of logic...the average combat shotgun holds what? 5-7 rounds? Even if it was a scientific guarantee of a one shot stop, that's 5-7 adversaries I can engage. If it took 3 rds to stop an adversary with 5.56 thats still 10 adversaries per mag.

FWIW, I never said, and I don't think anyone else has ever said the shotgun is not an effective "stopper", only that there other considerations. Otherwise are secondaries would all be T/C contenders in 30/30
 

nyeti

Moderator
Moderator
#53
It's like someone said "Beetlejuice" and here I am. Most know me as a shotgun proponent because I have likely used one operationally for real in other people's homes more than a majority of folks. I will make the same argument I did at my agency for two decades. The shotgun is not a give to everybody gun. They are big, have significant recoil, limited ammunition capacity with big hard to manipulate ammunition that also tends to be fragile. They have tons of limitations. The rifle is FAR more versatile and much more effective for most folks in most situations. Rifles really are what people say the shotgun is. They do not possess mythical powers and you have to aim them contrary to everything you have ever heard. Crooks do not surrender at the sound of the action being racked. So why the hell do I like them?......Well, it is because the blow big fricking holes in things when used indoors at pistol distances, and with slugs. In typical indoor engagements they make rat holes in people. In "most" cases,when hit in a vital area, crooks are out of fights right now. If you look at the trend of "burning em into the ground", well it doesn't take a dentist to figure out that if I am putting 9 ish tightly grouped holes into something simultaneously into a center chest or face, that is like burning them in with each press. When we get to people in cars....slugs kick the crap out of 5.56-period. Slugs also make big holes in soft things-period.
I like a shotgun for indoor pistol fight engagements,and that is how I used them most of the time. The problem is they are hard to use and take work and thinking to operate in that realm. Thus....not for everyone to hunt indoors. For a bunker down HD scenario, they work well. Those tasked with vehicle takedowns, they are good with slugs. For anything else, use a rifle.
This gets into another area. What if you cannot have a rifle because of legalities? This is where shotguns really shine. They are politically correct and available everywhere, which is reason enough to at least learn to run one. Sure, your HSLD 10.5 SBR with all the goodies is a great indoor gun for home defense.......except for in a whole lot of states where lots of people live. They are an instant go to jail, you are wrong, kiss your ass goodbye in places like California, Chicago, NY, Washington DC, and many others. How about travel? What happens when you accidentally get diverted to Newark (because Newark Airport is full of people who simply hate you for living)? I used to tell people in California trying to set up some semi-auto AR like 10 round fixed magazine abortion that they would be far better off getting very good with a well built 870. Heck, Joe Biden even thinks you should have one. Most police administrators think people with "assault rifles" are inherently evil killers. They are wrong, but, they are still calling the shots at screwing up your life. So, even if you despise the shotgun, you should have one and know how to run it.
So, for me, I really like the Steyr AUG for my go to versatile do everything gun. I have one sitting bedside because I live in Texas. It is sitting next to my 870....because that was bedside and spent many years with me in California and I trust it.
There are a ton of good why's to the shotgun. Not all of them are logical, but some things are not logical like many of our current firearms laws. Personally, I don't care if people do not like them, want them, or whatever. Think they suck, great, don't use one. On the other hand, there are a few of us floating around out here who can run them well. There are some roles where they are a great choice and if you have a tool choice, it may be the right one. Of course, people make poor choices Al the time and there are times when the 12ga. is a poor choice.
 
#54
As a professional hole plugger for years I can say there is no magic round. But what I will say is the hardest bleed outs I've ever tried stopping came from close range 00 Buck and Slugs. That does not mean I'm saying shotgun rounds are the best in any situation. Just something I've noticed over the years.

@nyeti pretty well nailed it so there isn't much else I can say to add to the discussion. Train with a shotty that fits your needs. Not being arrogant but I will say I'm pretty solid with an AR and proficient with AK platforms. I did a lot of my own research and never really looked into a shotgun since it never "fit my needs". I'm a medic. My place is in the back of the stack. I won't breach and even if I did, we don't use the shotgun. Liability. Home defense? Nope. Less lethal? Not my job, if I'm pulling a trigger the situation escalated to the point LL wasn't a viable option and somebody needed to be "neutralized" yesterday. So I carried on with my tunnel vision without realizing I even had it.

That said, even after treating multiple types of GSW's I had always been a rifle guy. More ammo, fast follow ups, good penetration, I looked awesome using it and had the sex appeal of Fabio. I had no need for wandering eyes or the urge to train with any other weapons than my tusty rifle and pistol. But like I said. Had. Until I was forced to qualify on an absolutely pathetic looking 870. That's when I fell in love all over again.

Qualification requirements were a joke (point and click from 50 yards and closing, timed but I felt like I had years to accomplish my tasks) and I didn't feel comfortable with the idea that god forbid I needed to use it I wouldn't be proficient in reloads if needed. This is also where I truly learned to appreciate the phrase, "Take your time in a hurry." Nothing says make the first one count like, you're going to have to manually chamber another fucking round in a hurry.

Familiarization was where my eyes were opened. Different rounds at different distances on paper were one thing. Different rounds on differen't OBJECTS/barriers was where the differences really came through. Put a .223 through a car window and tell me what happens. Now do it with a Slug? Buckshot? There's a difference. A huge one at a distance. Now make it interesting - do the same thing at an angle. Car doors? Drywall? Plywood? House doors? Industrial? All the rounds have different effects and it's good to know them. It's better to SEE them. You might be surprised. Actually using something will give you a better idea on it's ideal applications. Research different types of rounds. Then actually try them.

nyeti was absolutely correct. Shotguns aren't for everyone. But I believe anyone in the position of using one on another human being should train hard on one and learn the strengths and limitations of the so called relic. After doing so, decide whether you're a shotgun guy or not. If not, that's fine. I commend you for giving it an honest shot at it, even more respect for admitting you weren't all that great with it. Apply your skills to the rifle if that system better suites you. Just don't hate on others for choosing to use a screw driver instead of the hammer.

Different tools for different jobs.

Some like blondes over brunettes.

Ford or Chevy. On and on and on and on........
 

Pat Tarrant

Custom testicles
Staff member
Moderator
#56
From a civ standpoint, I'm looking at the options of getting one high quality semi shotgun (1301) or two 870s that I know how to run okay from training. Either way, I'd look to get some real training on them.

I'm always a proponent of having a backup. Would having 2 good pump guns be favorable to o e good semi without a backup?
 

MrMurphy

Regular Member
#58
Same....I'm not really a shotgun guy. I carry an 870 at work until I can rifle qual. But a well equipped pump and a spare to me is better than one semi. I've shot some semi shotguns but nearly all my 12ga experience is with pumps. Stick with what you know.
 
#59
Maybe a moot point, because feelings are soft, warm,, and useless many times, but... I feel like if I had to stop someone asap, a few rounds of 1oz slug or large buck to the com would be the best man portable solution available to me. I wouldn't want to "take it to war", but for home defense, it's a valid argument. Been in critical care for over 5 years nkw, and yet to see someone survive a blast from a 12ga to com if loaded with anything appropriate.
 

Bronson

Fury
Moderator
#60
All depends on home defense threats in your AO and force composition inside.

Shotgun negatives are increased times for multiple target engagements and feeding ammunition- if you have crews doing home invasions that's something to think about.

Personally- I believe that selecting a shotgun as your primary home defense weapon when you may have even the remote chance of needing to take a surgical precision shot (saving a family member) then that act is criminally negligent.

It simply cannot perform in that capacity consistently, not even with Vang Comp barrels or Flitecontrol.