Shotguns, why?

#23
Speaking solely as a civilian, for the purpose of a home invasion/burglary situation, a shotgun is perfect for me. I think that any generalizations are just that...generalizations. So much depends on what you are familiar with and how well you can operate it. For me, I also included the lay out of my house, the construction of my house and the neighboring houses. In my home at least, I have two floors. I also have no straight line in any direction more than 20 feet. Given the confines and the location of my family at night (yes, invasion scenarios do happen during the day as well but generally occur at night. If someone broke into my house during the day, there would be no one there except for the security system and, in about three minutes, the police.)

So I am comfortable with the gauge, in this case a customized Benelli Supernova Tactical. It has tritium front and rear sights, a SF 952V light (still working on the switchology), a Mesa tactical stock shell holder, a Sidesaddle, VCAS sling, 8rd mag extension and action job. Loaded with Federal Tactical Controlled Flite OO buck and Brenneke slugs.









 
#24
How is the pattern working out for you with the Federal Controlled Flight buck? If you have no distance greater than 20 feet, you have essentially no pattern spread. You might as well be running all slugs- That is how your buck is acting at those distances.

A couple fellow deputies were talking about this the other night, and our consensus was that the only reason to have buckshot was for in extremis breaching, and then only if dedicated breach rounds were not available. The policy is likely to change to slugs only, with a box of buck and a box of #7 issued per car for euthanizing animals. Our guys will reach for their patrol rifles way before they will go for the shotgun.

If you are working in close confines like your house, I would recommend getting a Form 1 for that and chopping the barrel to 14".
 
#25
....If someone broke into my house during the day, there would be no one there except for the security system and, in about three minutes, the police.
I think you are being hugely optimistic there. I've set off a bunch of alarms doing business checks. Sometimes we would time it to see how long it took before it got dispatched and 7-10 minutes was the norm. Add on drive time and you are easily at 15+ in a lot of cases.

Nothing to do with scatterguns, but just thought I would mention it.


Don't wish it was easier, wish you were better
 
#26
How is the pattern working out for you with the Federal Controlled Flight buck? If you have no distance greater than 20 feet, you have essentially no pattern spread. You might as well be running all slugs- That is how your buck is acting at those distances.

A couple fellow deputies were talking about this the other night, and our consensus was that the only reason to have buckshot was for in extremis breaching, and then only if dedicated breach rounds were not available. The policy is likely to change to slugs only, with a box of buck and a box of #7 issued per car for euthanizing animals. Our guys will reach for their patrol rifles way before they will go for the shotgun.

If you are working in close confines like your house, I would recommend getting a Form 1 for that and chopping the barrel to 14".
Sorry. I should have said the OO is on the buttstock carrier. The shotgun itself is loaded with slugs and has additional ones on the sidesaddle. My bad. Out in the open, the controlled flight buck is like Vang Comp in a shell. Very impressive.
 
#27
I think you are being hugely optimistic there. I've set off a bunch of alarms doing business checks. Sometimes we would time it to see how long it took before it got dispatched and 7-10 minutes was the norm. Add on drive time and you are easily at 15+ in a lot of cases.

Nothing to do with scatterguns, but just thought I would mention it.


Don't wish it was easier, wish you were better
Understood and no worries. Due to my proximity to the PD and other factors, I'm only a tad optimistic if any at all. But obviously lots of factors go into that equation.
 
#29
From a civilian HD scenario, i initially bought a shotgun for my wife, because that was what she wanted. She wanted something big and powerful, and she thought the racking of the slide of my 870 would most likely scare off any intruder. I was so excited at the prospect of being encouraged for once to buy a gun, I didn't bother correcting her or persuading her otherwise.

The more we trained together and we became more familiar and comfortable with Glocks and AR's she decided that she would be more comfortable with her sidearm or carbine for home defense. I am glad I have my 870 and wouldn't ever think about getting rid of it, but I believe that the right pistol or carbine round has less danger of over penetration of our house and still will be able to do the job of home defense. I know I could load bird shot or #4 shot in the shotgun for HD, but I'm a little uncomfortable with using either. I'd rather stick to what we train with most and are most comfortable.
 
#30
Bird shot is one of the worst things you can use for self defense purposes. #4 is better but still pales in comparison to buck shot which pales in comparison to slug.
 
#31
Bird shot is one of the worst things you can use for self defense purposes. #4 is better but still pales in comparison to buck shot which pales in comparison to slug.
Agreed. Years ago when I bought the shotgun, an "expert" at Gander Mt. suggested I buy bird shot and #4 shot for home defense because it was lower recoil for my wife, and "should do the job" for home defense because it wouldn't over penetrate. I bought buckshot and the Winchester PDX1 Defender instead.
 
#33
I can hit a man size target from 0 meters to about 250 with out changing so much as my point of aim with an M4 type carbine. That's what I call versatility.

As others noted less lethal should be a separate weapon all together, and I was taught the breaching shotgun is a tool, not a weapon.

Are there not 5.56 & 7.62 NATO rounds now that are better at barrier penetration and terminal effects then in the past? Are they not acceptable as compared to the 12g?

FWIW, I had limited training with a Win1200 in the Army, trained with and carried an 11/87 at a Nuclear power facility, was trained in the 870 by the DOE and carried it at one site. After 9/11 they went to AR types. I was also trained on the 870 as a breaching tool by DOE.

I was never to happy when I had the shotgun, as I often found myself in places that offered an adversary a significant amount of standoff, or cover that would not be defeated by 12g, and would need precision fire to engage effectively.

I'm not sure about it being a "thinking mans weapon" as much as it just requires more thinking to employ it on the part of the shooter.
 
#34
R. Moran nailed it.
In six years on the job, I have yet to see a shotgun come out of the rack on a call. The patrol rifles come out frequently. They are more appropriate for the precise and highly variable nature of the patrol deputies job.

I live in the country, and have always found the shotgun lacking for responding to my dog barking at night. The range capability is not there.

Even when I lived in a trailer park in college, the AR was the most appropriate thing to grab on the couple of occasions that I felt the need to go to the door with a firearm.

The only real reason I own a shotgun is for occasional three gun matches. The utility just is not there. If the match organizers would let people run carbines on shotgun stages, I suspect you would rarely see a shotgun at the range at all.

From patrol to defense to geese hunting a rifle does it better.
 

Dr. No

Regular Member
#35
We had an officer involved two years ago. One 12ga slug at 20y. DRT. Officer was not issued a rifle at the time.

Hard to argue with a shotgun's power. It has its disadvantages but it will get the job done.

I'll take it over just a pistol any day.
 
#36
I think as a lethal option yes it's still good to go and have been advised by some folks that it does great against vehicles where an AR might have issues. As less lethal I'm losing faith in it. We have had several folks in the past six months take four or more rounds with little to no effect resulting in a deputy getting hacked up with a freaking sword (more issues in that than just the LL but that's for another topic) if you want LL use a 37/40mm seems to work better than the bean bags. Ymmv and all that.

Eta: it appears Longeye beat me to it and stated it much better than I could.​

Toole
 

EKinOR

Amateur
Vendor
#37
I've also seen 12ga LL have no affect as well. I also believe 12ga LL should be discarded in favor of 40mm. Too bad the 12ga Taser round didn't work out.
 

jnc36rcpd

Regular Member
#38
Like anything else, impact munitions work more efficiently on less-motivated people. This is especially true with shotgun-launched rounds. NTOA now advocates 37/40mm launchers, but acknowledges that finances may restrict many agencies to shotguns.
As a point of interest, however, our allied county agency instituted a less-lethal impact munitions program some years ago. Officers selected for the program were issued Benelli shotguns and their 870's were converted to less-lethal. To my knowledge, no county patrol officer has ever launched a less-lethal shotgun round. I will note that the Taser and CIT program were instituted about the same time.
My outfit? No less-lethals here. A major (fortunately, now retired) derailed the program with his haughty opinion that I should apply for advanced management training rather than less-lethal instructor school. He was the same one who was upset about the transition to .40 and vehemently opposed the rifle program with questions whether we expected terrorists to come marching down the street and if we really thought we could stand up to terrorists. I'm glad the Garland PD did not have someone like him in charge.
 
#39
I've also seen 12ga LL have no affect as well. I also believe 12ga LL should be discarded in favor of 40mm. Too bad the 12ga Taser round didn't work out.
I wanted that thing to work so bad.... even if it only worked 1/4 of the time like the Taser lol
 

MrMurphy

Regular Member
#40
Currently carry an 870 on duty, until they can run another patrol rifle class and I can qualify. While I'd far prefer the AR, having carried one on and off much of my adult life, the 870 is definitely better than nothing. My first (so far only) felony stop I was one of the few guys without a long gun because we'd run late coming out of briefing and someone had pulled the 870 from the truck, but not the rifle. My FTO had his rifle, I had a Glock.

Better than nothing but I'd rather have had a long gun..... I make sure every single time I now have a shotgun in the vehicle.....period. Until I can carry my personal (or issued) rifle.
We run a full tube of Flite Control or at least standard 00, and slugs in a Speedfeed. They've come out on a few calls, and I'm glad it's there. Still prefer a rifle, but if you can't have a rifle.....i'll take what I can get.