Switching shoulders with a carbine
- Thread starter Matt Landfair
- Start date
Define someone of note in regards to this discussion. A big name instructor? Someone who has seen much combat? A successful competitor?
Grayman
Established
I would leave that up to person offering up the opinion..
For me personally it's someone other than Joe Bob air softer/Gun counter commando with no practical trigger time...
I don't think a person has to be or have been .mil or LEO to offer up valid opinions as long as they are grounded in reality and based on a factual basis.
For me personally it's someone other than Joe Bob air softer/Gun counter commando with no practical trigger time...
I don't think a person has to be or have been .mil or LEO to offer up valid opinions as long as they are grounded in reality and based on a factual basis.
^that right there is what we are striving for in the entire forum.
John Fischer
Newbie
Switching to your support side when dealing with building and structure search is a invaluable skill set . Why would you want to expose any part of your anatomy than your need to.? Especially when its just you doing the searching . If you don't own that skill you are on the downslope to a shit sandwich.
I've tried it, about the only thing you gain per say is that your firing hand is not retarded. Its basically a way to cope out of doing any practical training with your support side. The big issue is when you try to do it with restrictive armor systems like the IOTV. Goes to hell in a handbasket.
Unless this is something trained, I see it as a detriment. Someone will read this and not understand the training aspect required for this application.
Grayman
Established
MattJames:
I agree that for some it's just a cop out.. However I think there is some merit to the quickness of simply switching shoulders without doing a hand dance.
I.E:
Quick peeking an offside corner before taking or searching the unknown beyond.
If you simply swap shoulders while maintaining the same hand positions you can:
Peek the corner and maintain visual of the area, as you step out from behind cover you simply pull the rifle away from your shoulder and re seat it in your strong side shoulder pocket. You still own the area and you can continue to advance to target while making the transfer.
If you do the hand dance you have to:
Approach offside cover then stop and swap hands. You peek the corner on the offside and then comes decision time...do you take the area maintaining offside control of the gun leaving you in a less than optimal shooting position or do you step back behind cover sacrifice your visual and switch back to the dominant side. (Obviously this is an exaggerated assessment of what would be a fairly fluid process in reality I just want to emphasize the minutia of the process)
If I am going to be posted on an offside corner/cover for any length of time I would do the dance and commit to an offside hand position. If I am just going to do a quick peek it makes more sense for me to maintain my grip and simply deal with the minor discomfort/awkwardness of crossing my body slightly. I do have orangutan arms so it's not as tough for me as it might be for a midget but ymmv
This is by no means a reason not to train off hand!!!
I agree that for some it's just a cop out.. However I think there is some merit to the quickness of simply switching shoulders without doing a hand dance.
I.E:
Quick peeking an offside corner before taking or searching the unknown beyond.
If you simply swap shoulders while maintaining the same hand positions you can:
Peek the corner and maintain visual of the area, as you step out from behind cover you simply pull the rifle away from your shoulder and re seat it in your strong side shoulder pocket. You still own the area and you can continue to advance to target while making the transfer.
If you do the hand dance you have to:
Approach offside cover then stop and swap hands. You peek the corner on the offside and then comes decision time...do you take the area maintaining offside control of the gun leaving you in a less than optimal shooting position or do you step back behind cover sacrifice your visual and switch back to the dominant side. (Obviously this is an exaggerated assessment of what would be a fairly fluid process in reality I just want to emphasize the minutia of the process)
If I am going to be posted on an offside corner/cover for any length of time I would do the dance and commit to an offside hand position. If I am just going to do a quick peek it makes more sense for me to maintain my grip and simply deal with the minor discomfort/awkwardness of crossing my body slightly. I do have orangutan arms so it's not as tough for me as it might be for a midget but ymmv
This is by no means a reason not to train off hand!!!
Barry in IN
Amateur
Just to be clear, I never thought of it as a way to avoid weak hand shooting practice. I see that as a (usually) separate need. I always thought of staying with the same hand positions as a way to simplify/streamline something that often gets overcomplicated.
As with anything, put in on the timer. If you are moving to a new corner that you already know is going to put you in that position, its just as easy to switch ahead of time or as you approach. No stopping required.
The biggest thing a lot of people forget to do and what prompts a lot of awkwardness in the early stages of practice offhand is the footwork. Swapping ones feet to the mirror image of strong side makes a lot of the awkwardness go away... then its just a matter of getting your hands trained to work a carbine from the side of lesser familiarity.
The biggest thing a lot of people forget to do and what prompts a lot of awkwardness in the early stages of practice offhand is the footwork. Swapping ones feet to the mirror image of strong side makes a lot of the awkwardness go away... then its just a matter of getting your hands trained to work a carbine from the side of lesser familiarity.
Grayman
Established
Prepping in advance of a corner makes sense but you still have to deal with the swap over after... At some point you are going to be moving through an unknown with your hands in a position that prevent them from manipulating the weapon in a manner that allows for bad guy perforation. With practice this transition becomes smooth and quick but the reality is still there that at some point your hands will be fucked up long enough for Murphy to rear his ugly head.
Again I'm not advocating against the concept; I have trained and am proficient at shooting offhand offside with my rifle as SHOULD be standard for everyone who carries a rifle for work or trains like they do!!!
MJ:
I'll come up with an offside threat and do a little test on the clock and for score... When I get a chance I'll have a few guys run it an see how it goes for varying levels of proficiency offhand.
Again I'm not advocating against the concept; I have trained and am proficient at shooting offhand offside with my rifle as SHOULD be standard for everyone who carries a rifle for work or trains like they do!!!
MJ:
I'll come up with an offside threat and do a little test on the clock and for score... When I get a chance I'll have a few guys run it an see how it goes for varying levels of proficiency offhand.
Bourneshooter
Blue Line Sheepdog
Grayman, so doing that thing we talked about this week, I found that its easy to say "transition" until you're wearing a gas mask, paintball mask for FOF work, etc and you can't get the usual cheek weld.
Personally, I'm more confident in making a precision shot with my strong hand/side. If it's not a precision shot, sure no gas mask on I'll go support hand as the RDS makes it doable.
Can I train to the same level of proficiency with both hands? Sure. If I had a lot more money for live fire of it, as it stands I only have X amount of dollars a year for ammo. If I reduce the live fire strong hand only below its low levels, my strong hand work drops substantially for the in my work application experience non used support hand rifle fire.
The method that has felt the best in dry practice for transitions was keeping my strong hand on the trigger and pushing across the shoulders, but that was not application of the technique under stress at all, nor was it indicative of the space limitations that may exist in a real world use of it for me.
Just a few thoughts.
Personally, I'm more confident in making a precision shot with my strong hand/side. If it's not a precision shot, sure no gas mask on I'll go support hand as the RDS makes it doable.
Can I train to the same level of proficiency with both hands? Sure. If I had a lot more money for live fire of it, as it stands I only have X amount of dollars a year for ammo. If I reduce the live fire strong hand only below its low levels, my strong hand work drops substantially for the in my work application experience non used support hand rifle fire.
The method that has felt the best in dry practice for transitions was keeping my strong hand on the trigger and pushing across the shoulders, but that was not application of the technique under stress at all, nor was it indicative of the space limitations that may exist in a real world use of it for me.
Just a few thoughts.
We ran a drill at Coolie's class, two targets just inside the full arch of the shooter's vision, the idea working on moving the eyes ahead of the gun. He demonstrated that once practiced, the transition between target PLUS a shift from shoulder to shoulder was nearly the same time.
It takes no time at all to swap as you come around cover or a corner or as your about to move.
Bourne- yeah, the gas mask is a PITA. Hence why I don't use the Magpul style method of swapping shoulders.
It takes no time at all to swap as you come around cover or a corner or as your about to move.
Bourne- yeah, the gas mask is a PITA. Hence why I don't use the Magpul style method of swapping shoulders.
ROMPER
Amateur
I have tried the other method of switching shoulders, but keeping hand placement the same. This is next to impossible when running with gas mask....as well as it seems to take me longer to get things situated (eye, optic, threat) than having the gun sitting correctly on the support side with everything else as it was intended to be.
I have a couple of my new guys trying to expand the virtues of this (switching shoulders keeping hands the same) now.....you know re-inventing the wheel.....we tend to do a lot of that here in my neck of the woods.....LOL, Matt 6 actual and I have already had that discussion.
R
I have a couple of my new guys trying to expand the virtues of this (switching shoulders keeping hands the same) now.....you know re-inventing the wheel.....we tend to do a lot of that here in my neck of the woods.....LOL, Matt 6 actual and I have already had that discussion.
R
I practice bilateral shooting, with both pistols and long guns. I noted while working with Ken Good, who is a big proponent of bilateral shooting, that people who failed to conform to cover by switching hands caught a LOT more paint in FoF than those who were willing to put in the work.
It comes in useful even in non-combative situations, my last deer hunting shot was done left handed, due to the cover I was using, the situation with many does near me, and the fact that there was no way I could get moved around for a right handed shot. Clean hit at 90 yards, immediately dropped the buck, used a .308 bolt gun with scope set on 4x
It comes in useful even in non-combative situations, my last deer hunting shot was done left handed, due to the cover I was using, the situation with many does near me, and the fact that there was no way I could get moved around for a right handed shot. Clean hit at 90 yards, immediately dropped the buck, used a .308 bolt gun with scope set on 4x
I took a class recently where we did a lot of transition work. I currently have a deal-d2 mounted with an H1. Strong right eye domination made the transition difficult without closing my right eye. The DBAL was cheating, fast transition and fast target acquisition.
jmatt511
Amateur
We trained with primary to secondary sides for building searches and room clearance. I had a rude awakening when we used sims for force on force training and I took a few rounds to the head and upper torso. Huge wake-up call. I practice this all the time now and still suck, but suck less as time goes by.
I am probably the exception to the rule but I am so freaking monkey retarded stupid accurate shooting my off side vs. my primary side, both carbine and pistol, that I am seriously considering switching sides. That or getting glasses. I try to train both sides every range session. I've used off side techniques as both a soldier and a cop. In my honest opinion, if you aren't training both sides at least a minimal amount anyway, you are doing yourself a disservice.
I see value in switching sides and not hands in some situations. You can maintain speed and still not expose more than necessary around corners and short room doorways, and especially when using a laser. I see value in switching sides with the hand swap for working cover or very slow, deliberate clearing of structures, once again, easier when using a laser. I'm probably 75-80% with my left side what I am with my right.
JD Williams
Member
Some offside shooting familiarity makes sense in the case of injury or other unforeseen circumstances also.
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