Shooting to fast in self defense?

MarkinGSO

Newbie
I was listening to a podcast were the host and guest talked about training to hard. That having a fast draw and fast split times could be a detriment to a self defense legal case. They were talking about the split times being faster than one could process the hits on target. The ideal split time time should be close 1/2 second. That you could actually shoot the aggressor after he has given up or turned and started to run away. They went on to talk about how civilians and even LEO's should be re-evaluating the scene in front of them after every shot. The only people that this doesn't apply to would be the military.

My take was that the guest, just can't shoot.
 

Default.mp3

Established
I mean, folks outrunning their headlights is a very real issue that respected trainers have talked about; my last class with Bill Blowers, this was touched upon. I believe that Darryl Bolke has talked about 0.25 being about as fast as is really necessary for any realistic UoF, whether it be LE or civilian; other considerations such as target background and foreground are also considerations that change moment to moment; 0.25 is the typical reaction time to visual stimuli. 0.5 does seem excessively slow, but I will concede that it might be a practical number for your typical shooter that doesn't put much practice or effort into handgun skills.

The draw, on the other hand, I'm not seeing a connection.
 

Default.mp3

Established
LangdonTactical said:
For those that have been to my class, specifically my advanced class. You will know where I stand on this. .1x splits are cool, but they rely on the target and the shooter standing still, which is not very likely at all. When you are moving and the target is moving, you are lucky to get splits faster than about .35 and .50s are more the norm because that is the time that it takes for your mine to process the information that is coming in and for the gun to cycle. I have never really cared about .1X splits, they are just not important for most of what we need a handgun for.
Source: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?27191-DB-diatribe-on-triggers&p=669777&viewfull=1#post669777

An earlier post has someone saying that Bolke also teaches around the 0.35 to 0.50 being pretty normal for decision driven shooting in a dynamic environment.

That being said, I think there absolutely is value in being able to get .2 splits on a flat range; if you're satisfied with a 0.5 split on the flat range, I suspect that you won't be able to perform at the same level when presented with a UoF scenario.
 

MrMurphy

Regular Member
Cooper wrote about a defensive shooting 25 yrs ago where the civilian unloaded 8+ .380s on the guy. Somewhere in the middle of being hit multiple times dirtbag wisely decided to run. As he spun he took a couple to the back before shooter could figure that out and cease fire. Dirtbag was DRT but apparently there was much legal wrangling (then) to show how fast someone could turn vs someone shooting.
I am certainly not against shooting fast, but unloading 18 rounds in 0.00001 seconds or whatever vs 5 to 7 in 1 second might cause issues in certain situations.
 

pointblank4445

Established
Throttle control, man...
Different situations (dude on a open highway with his empty car/ditch as a backstop vs a no-fail HRT situation in a crowded area), everybody's got to know their limits. Does everybody here know their max cadence to stay within a 10-ring on a B8 out to 25?....how bout in the black?

Pretty sure Chuck Pressburg was the one talking about the overriding sense of officers/persons giving into the urge of having to put lead downrange yesterday as fast as humanly possible rather than flipping the switch to going from self-preservation/panic mode and focusing on the task and ending the threat earlier by applying appropriate shooting solution.

I have seen some damn impressive trigger press splits from my officers on the TI simulator...like Jerry Miculek fast, but they almost always "die" from expending all 16 rounds in the barn-door size group that doesn't hit shit.

As they say in "Unforgiven" that's the hell of it. If he's hurryin'...he'll miss. But if he doesn't miss, he'll kill ya. I know I sure as hell ain't going to stifle my cadence speed during training. Again..."a ,man's got to know his limitations"
 

MrMurphy

Regular Member
I agree. I know about how fast i can realistically shoot, and by P&S standards im an average shot, i do not get to train a lot. But i can definitely see less practiced, ie only practice at qualtime ppl in my and surrounding agencies under stress mag dumping and missing.
 

Greg "Sully" Sullivan

Too Established
Vendor
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When having to shoot a deadly threat (2 legged or 4 legged), it isn't about how good you look or how fast you shoot, it is about obtaining a well placed shot exactly where it needs to go to stop that threat, and doing it upon demand. This is where proper training and practice comes in.

There is an old saying to the effect of: An amateur practices until they get it right, and a professional practices until they can't get it wrong".

I like to use shot timers to show where a shooter is at skill level wise on things like draw time, multiple shot time for recoil management, and reload times. Then once you have a base time on the shooter performing with their current skills, as an instructor I teach them how to become more proficient by streamlining any access movement out of the draw, work on recoil management to reduce excess muzzle movement between shots, and reduce excess movements during reloads, in simple terms make them more efficient with less excessive movement, which then use the shot timer to see if there is an improvement. What I see is that most gains in reduction of time are usually not from pressing the trigger faster, rather it comes from reducing excess movements in how the shooter performs tasks, what I call economy of motion. The negative to a shot timer is that many of us race them trying to be faster than the next guy (It's that Cro-Magnon Male dick measuring contest thing, I'm Irish so I've lost already but I do have good style points for a dismount), and what I see is that many shooters will most of the time shoot too quickly and miss.

Not to side track the thread (But Jerry Miculek's name was brought up), but it also relates to competition vs real world gunfights. Competition is a game, and should be viewed as such. There are many lessons to be learned from competition, some of the lessons can be applied to self defense, and some of those things cannot or should not be applied to self defense.

In the competition world, if a shooter misses then they don't get to score the hit on paper, or possibly get penalized by having time added to their overall, or sometimes have to take additional shots until they hit the intended target. In a real world gunfight, if you missed your intended target, then where did that bullet go, as it isn't doing you any good, and it now becomes a liability of possibly hitting someone innocent person, which can cause injury or death, resulting in you possibly going to jail and/or civil liability. In a gunfight. how many rounds are you carrying in the firearm and how many do you have on your person, as a gunfight may be over quickly, or it could last a long time, it could only a single or few rounds fired, or it could take lots of rounds (If you run out of rounds, then what do you do if the fight isn't over).

I have seen some competition shoots where they have the shooter slice the pie on a doorway, only being allowed to slice it one direction and only once overall, this may work in competition but not in the real world of having to search for a badguy(s) in real life as you may need to pie that doorway several times (not including looking high and low, over and under furniture etc). I have also seen on many competition shooting ranges where the shooter isn't allowed to scan past the far corners of the target backer line or break their left-right 180-degree line, as this again may work in competition and I do realize that it is done for safety purposes, but it doesn't always apply well to the real world of having to work in a 360-degree environment of having to search/scan/move.

Relative to all of this is the gear that is involved. I see many shooters at classes that show up using an outside the waist band holster, and no concealment garment is used. For me if I am not in uniform with body armor with a duty belt (Safariland 070 SSIII holster) or full SWAT gear, then I am carrying concealed in a IWB with a cover garment over the gun and magazines, so this is how I should be training.

So my emphasis is that it is about a well placed round(s), and not about how fast you shoot those rounds, as I view it from a self defense gunfight persepective.


CY6
Greg Sullivan "Sully"
SLR15 Rifles
TheDefensiveEdge.com
(763) 712-0123
 

Arete

Regular Member
Watch some dash/body cams of LEO UoF, and non LE. All the LE folks are "trained", no? When folks are behind in the curve they pull the trigger as fast as possible. It is human nature. Training is supposed to overcome that. But does it really? Well, we have data from decades of LE OIS and it tells us that the majority of shots fired are misses.

Is the problem with the LEOs, the training, the conditions, or . . . . ?

Having said that, it is possible to shoot quickly AND accurately, if one trains. What is the training level of most LEOs and good guy citizens? (rhetorical question)

How many folks can do a bill drill in sub 2 sec with all A's? Consistently? Damn few. How many LEOs?

In a recent OIS that I know of, the LEO went 5 for 5 to the torso and rapidly stopped the threat. All 5 were fired in about 1.0 sec from first to last (per video). Distance was about 10'. This particular LEO actually *trains* on his own time, and it showed.

Regardless, when at close range and "shooting to save your life", the majority of people go cyclic, no matter the tool employed. And if they have good technique, it'll likely turn out OK. As did in the above. But often, there are a lot of misses.

As SCOTUS said in Brown V. U.S., "Detached reflection cannot be demanded in the presence of an uplifted knife."

Further, the bad guy gets to initiate the attack, which is a huge advantage. So the intended victim is trying to come from behind. That's a tough problem to solve. There are numerous examples of this. An ambush is by design a no-win situation for the intended victim.

IMO, the answer lies in training, not just the part that starts with skinning that smokewagon, but all the pre-fight stuff that influences what follows.
 

Chriscanbreach

Established
You’re missing the point and those comments on the podcast were an over generalization. Nothing in competition will make you less survivable in a real life encounter and training for pure accuracy will never get you out of D class in competition.
You’re mind has to be right and it will make the call and the cadence appropriate to the situation.
The force science institute has put considerable effort into understanding processing speed and reaction time. Accurate speed is what wins both competition and real life with speed being the key. Worrying about your slow processing speed over the lethality of the threat is pointless.
Defense of a third party is easy and if prepared you’ll do fine and make the hits you’re capable of.
Defense of yourself is hard because you’re the one in danger. You’ll speed up but make the hits you’re capable of even if you’re hit first.
Take what was said in the podcast as a training reminder to push yourself and find out what you can do.
 

user12358

Regular Member
I think people are getting too wrapped up in the numbers of a split time and trying to quantify it with the wrong metric. You shouldn't be outrunning your headlights which means shooting as soon as you have an acceptable sight picture for the given problem, but not before which is where the wheels fall of for most. That magic split time will be different from person to person and problem to problem and weapon to weapon. What ever that split time is only really matters to you as a method of tracking improvement.

That being said, I am a firm believer that you should draw your pistol or move your rifle from the ready position ASAP every time and the only variable should be how much time you spend refining the sight picture from problem to problem once the gun is in that last bit of the presentation.
 

ccw1911

Newbie
I certainly can't agree with the notion that you don't want to get too good or it might be used against you in court. To start with who or what will record the times of your draw or splits? I don't think information derived from a surveillance video would be accurate enough, hard to imagine a shooting with a shot timer on hand, and witness testimony is proven to be unreliable. My background is in competition shooting and then over 20 years in LE, I was pretty successful in competition and practiced draws from my duty rig with the same dedication. Several times my drawing speed stopped the suspect from going any further and allowed me to take them into custody without having to fire.
Ideal split time? No such thing, you keep shooting until they stop being a threat the quicker that happens the safer everyone else is.
 

MarkinGSO

Newbie
I'm not trying to diss or put down anybody, I'm trying to learn.

I shoot and practice primarily for competition (USPSA & SC). I dry fire 3 times a week for about 1/2 an hour, live fire practice twice a month, shoot 1 match a month. I can shoot a good Bill Drill in around 4 seconds. I'm not the best, or am I the worst.

I just do not see myself, not shooting as fast as a can in a close range self defense situation.
 

Fatboy

Established
An idea to consider- when deadly force is justified, the amount and type aren't really debatable. Hit them with a car, shoot them lots (or a little), drop a house on them, etc. It's all deadly force.
Excessive force issues will only apply if you are a government agent working in a government capacity.
 

Fatboy

Established
(edited down for brevity)

I just do not see myself, not shooting as fast as a can in a close range self defense situation.


I have to wonder if you really understand the seriousness of a gun fight if you aren't shooting quick and accurate enough to win. That's the point of training- to find your limit and improve it.
My .02, sorry about what you paid for it.
 

MarkinGSO

Newbie
Throttle control, man...
Different situations (dude on a open highway with his empty car/ditch as a backstop vs a no-fail HRT situation in a crowded area), everybody's got to know their limits. Does everybody here know their max cadence to stay within a 10-ring on a B8 out to 25?....how bout in the black?

Pretty sure Chuck Pressburg was the one talking about the overriding sense of officers/persons giving into the urge of having to put lead downrange yesterday as fast as humanly possible rather than flipping the switch to going from self-preservation/panic mode and focusing on the task and ending the threat earlier by applying appropriate shooting solution.

I have seen some damn impressive trigger press splits from my officers on the TI simulator...like Jerry Miculek fast, but they almost always "die" from expending all 16 rounds in the barn-door size group that doesn't hit shit.

As they say in "Unforgiven" that's the hell of it. If he's hurryin'...he'll miss. But if he doesn't miss, he'll kill ya. I know I sure as hell ain't going to stifle my cadence speed during training. Again..."a ,man's got to know his limitations"

It was not Chuck Pressburg, I can't remember the guy's name. I really do not want call anybody out. Just looking for more information
 

pointblank4445

Established
It was not Chuck Pressburg, I can't remember the guy's name. I really do not want call anybody out. Just looking for more information

Yeah...sure about that?

I remember being on the way home from a range sess; next to the Anchor, IL elevator.
Just couldn't remember if it was this, "Refining Skill" or "Modding Pistols" that I had been replaying. Some of what I said is paraphrased from the last 30 min of "Refining Skill 184".

Likely as not, similar was said elsewhere is the occurrence is common and obvious.
 

MarkinGSO

Newbie
No, that was not the podcast. I remember that show, Chuck was talking cognitive ability, and how people process the information. The show I listened to, the instructor was more talking about shooting to fast from a legal stand point. It came down to shooting the bad guy in the back, if they turned and tried to end the fight. If you are pulling the trigger with out evaluating the scene, you will not "see" the bad guy turn, and an aggressive prosecutor will use that against you. I'm going to go back and try and find it, it was from less then 2 weeks ago
 
Was it the one where chuck, tim Chandler were talking about shooting fast to "make the bad man go away"

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