Order of Acquisitions

[Chris Taylor]

We get the "what guns do I buy" question a lot, especially on the fb. Figured a more permanent topic for posterity would be appropriate. Here will probably be a video and/or ModCast dealing with this topic as well.

So, for John Q (non-LE, non-mil) Homeowner, what order should he buy his guns?

For the purpose of this question, figure all ancillary items are included in the suggestion (holsters, mags, mag carriers, slings, sights, etc.). So, if I say CCW Pistol, I'm including CCW holster, mag pouches, upgraded sights, and light.

Discuss...

 

[Caomhin]

CCW Pistol would be my first recommendation and by CCW I mean nothing less than a mid-sized pistol - Glock 19, HKP2000, HK45, Sig P225-sized firearms.

Second would be a carbine (and all the accessories that go with that application).

Then a 12 gauge shotgun.

I would also advise extensive training on each as they acquired them.

If the desire is to purchase another make/model of pistol I would recommend them to purchase a GLOCK 19 or purchase another GLOCK 19 THEN purchase whatever dances into their heads.

Few will need a battle rifle; same with the heavy bolt gun but if both are WANTED get the battle rifle first then the target rifle.


-------------------------------------
"One cannot awaken a man who pretends to be asleep."

 

[Chris Taylor]

For my suggestions, I use the following quote as a guideline, "An urban dweller needs to be a pistolero first and foremost, rural folks need to be riflemen."

Therefore, my list is as follows...
-CCW pistol
-training on pistol skills
-HD rifle
-rifle training
-duplicate/secondary CCW pistol (whether a copy of the primary CCW, or a secondary type. G43 if you ordinarily carry a G19)
-training
-duplicate HD rifle, set up similarlyto the main HD rifle
-training

Rationale: since a CCW will be on or near a person pretty continuously, where a HD rifle is more likely to spend he majority of the time in a closet when the owner is not at home, I usually suggest acquiring and training on the CCW pistol. Far better utility/cost ratio.

 

[Bourneshooter]

For my suggestions, I use the following quote as a guideline, "An urban dweller needs to be a pistolero first and foremost, rural folks need to be riflemen."

Therefore, my list is as follows...
-CCW pistol
-training on pistol skills
-HD rifle
-rifle training
-duplicate/secondary CCW pistol (whether a copy of the primary CCW, or a secondary type. G43 if you ordinarily carry a G19)
-training
-duplicate HD rifle, set up similarlyto the main HD rifle
-training

Rationale: since a CCW will be on or near a person pretty continuously, where a HD rifle is more likely to spend he majority of the time in a closet when the owner is not at home, I usually suggest acquiring and training on the CCW pistol. Far better utility/cost ratio.

I came in here to post this very thing.

 

[Tactical Fedora]

I wasn't going to post anything, given that I'm a novice working towards the Intermediate level, but since there's not much discussion on this thread I thought I'd throw my hat in; perhaps there's something I'm missing in my current priorities list. Thus far, this has been my short-term priority in firearms acquisitions:

Glock 19 Gen 4 (now with Ameriglo I-dot Pros instead of the XS Big Dots I had on)
Handgun training
AR-15
Rifle Training

At this point I have accomplished the first two acquisitions (Glock 19 and handgun training) and the AR is on the way. I left out the shotgun for now because, although I'd like to get one in the future, there's other priorities I want to take care of after rifle training, such as medical training, more handgun training, low-light training, force-on-force training, etc. With the Glock 19 and the AR, I have pretty much all my defensive needs covered anyway, so adding another long gun isn't a priority to me.

 

[ImBatman]

This is from my facebook post on the subject.


As follows are my steps of prioritization. All gear (holsters, mags, WMLs etc) are given the same priority as the gun they are supporting. For multi use items they're given the highest precedence they support.

1) Carry Gun. This is your 90% gun, the largest gun you can comfortably conceal about your person under most manners of dress and most activities you engage in. Common examples are compact framed Glocks, CZ P09s and the M&P Compact line.

2) Non-Permissive Environment Gun. This is your wedding gun. The gun you wear when manners of dress or activities dictate going down in size. Common examples are Glock 42/43s, Shields, and J frames.

3) Redundant Carry Gun. The point of redundancy in your carry gun is to allow a backup should your primary go down due to a failure of parts, or being sent off to get work done. The redundant carry gun should mirror as closely as possible your carry gun to negate any concerns should you need to switch.

4) Home Defense Guns. Be it rifle, shotgun, or a full sized pistol. These guns will be least accessible about your daily life, relegated to home and under some conditions in the vehicle if driving, as such they receive the lowest priority.

For me the priorities are all about what I'm going to have available most often, this dictates where I'm spending my money on new gear and where I'm spending most of my time practicing.

Support gear falls under it's respective gun, an aimpoint for my home defense rifle is of less importance to me than a RMR for my carry gun for example.

Training is at every step of the way. however prioritization falls under the weapons platform I'll be attending class for. A pistol class trumps a rifle class for me.

"An urban dweller needs to be a pistolero first and foremost, rural folks need to be riflemen." This is absolute gold Chris.

 

[Chris Taylor]

"An urban dweller needs to be a pistolero first and foremost, rural folks need to be riflemen." This is absolute gold Chris.

Thanks bud, although I can't take credit for it. As much as I disagree with a lot of his stuff, that's a paraphrased rip off of Boston T Party. You can find nuggets of gold anywhere if you dig hard enough.

As for your Prioritization, I don't disagree at all sir. Darn good reasoning, and thanks for sharing.

 

[tact]

I would add the words "continuous" or "ongoing" to the aforementioned pistol training skills as one or two classes doesn't cut it. Same applies to the rifle.

 

[TSiWRX]

As an average-Joe who recently (I've only been "seriously" shooting for the past 5 and 1/2 years), ImBatman's post above ( https://primaryandsecondary.com/forum/index.php?threads/order-of-acquisitions.1981/#post-13969 ) really hits the nail on the head.

That duplicate of the carry is so, so, so important, particularly as one starts to get really serious about practicing/training with it and start to rack up that round-count.

I've been down this road, and I can say without a doubt that playing with carbines and shotguns - dressing up like our favorite ninjas and going out there to slay some cardboard or steel in tactibro day camps - is just tremendous fun. Heck, even shooting these firearms is just loads of grins.....

....but average-Joes/Janes really need to put this kind of fun into the proper perspective.

Focus on that carry/defensive firearm, first. For someone like me, without any military or law-enforcement background, the necessary base-level proficiency in terms of marksmanship and manipulations is harder to achieve than most would imagine - and for some, like to admit to themselves.

I found Kyle Defoor's "How Good is Good Enough" blog entries at a really critical time for me - when I'd gotten "decent" with the handgun and had started looking at the carbine and shotgun with an envious eye. It really helped me refocus my mission (legal concealed-carry/self-defense), and I hope it is OK to link those articles here:

Part 1 - http://kyledefoor.tumblr.com/post/105099857118/training-balance-and-how-good-is-good-enough
Part 2- http://kyledefoor.tumblr.com/post/105099912358/training-balance-and-how-good-is-good-enough-part

I find that most of the time, with this in-mind, I can drive towards my mission well enough. Still, I must confess that strapping on a war belt holding 60 rounds of 5.56 and slinging a carbine holds an undeniable appeal to the part of my brain that's stuck at 12 years of age, refusing to give up my action figures. It's at those times that shooting (or even just watching) some competition or the words/drills of an instructor with clarity-of-focus (thanks, Varg, if you're reading this), can really help get me back on-track.

So, as an average-Joe/Jane type, I say from the bottom of my heart: thanks for this thread.

 

[treehopr]

The lists above, while useful from a blue-sky perspective won't help unless we can put actual dollar amounts behind each item to include training.

 

[Chris Taylor]

The lists above, while useful from a blue-sky perspective won't help unless we can put actual dollar amounts behind each item to include training.

Why blue sky? The purpose of this is to help John Q properly allocate his limited resources, instead of saving furiously to get a tool he may not need. Better to save and spend on the most useful tool first (CCW pistol), rather than a tool that will see much more limited use.

Every person's situation, budget and needs will be different, and there are plenty of work arounds for some things that can drastically reduce the financial burden.

Plus, this wasn't intended as a "thou shalt buy this" topic, but to encourage debate and critical thought, and open people's eyes to possibilties they may not have considered. Many people get caught up in the thought that they need to be tactical robot ninja, when all John Q needs is a good CCW, a good rifle, and lots of good training.

 

[avtech850]

I feel like the rule of multiples voiced by Chuck Hagard is a really good guidline.
For me, the number is three when it comes to purchasing more firearms. I would rather have three well equiped, carbines, shotguns or pistols then just one of any maxed out. Once I hit that number, then I can start to look at really going wild on any one of the above listed.
I love my RMR'D glock but I was more then relieved that I had a spare carry gun when the optic took a dump and went back to the factory.
Same story for rifles. In my mind, I would rather have three ( Pick your brand of choice.) Rifles wearing aimpoint Pro's and a P3X then I would a War Sport equipped with a T2/DBAL/Scout etc etc etc. Call insurance for when something takes a dump so I won't be in a corner waiting on someone to fix it.
Shotguns. I don't guage and really have minimal intrest in them at this point and time
Training and ammo go without saying of course.

 

[Chris Taylor]

Since price was brought up, here's a random breakdown of the cost of a pretty well set up CCW. All prices are new, and located by a quick google search, or visiting one of our retailers (Big Tex Outdoors www.bigtexoutdoors.com in this case) for their pricing. This is not an endorsement of any particular company or product, and is used for illustrative purposes *only*.

- Glock G19- $500
- upgraded sights ~$100 (average of several options)
- holster Raven Morrigan $50
- SF X300U $270
- spare mags MagPul $15/ea, or factory for $27/ea
- mag pouch BFG 10spd dbl pouch $30

That's ~$950 with a few extra mags for practice/training/carry. All those are new prices. If someone bought a used police trade-in 19, or used from a LGS, a TLR instead of a U-boat or a handheld G2X instead of a WML, and you shop around for deals and sales, one could get that down to the ~$700 range for a CCW set up.

Add in $100 for a beginning handgun class with a good local instructor, and ~$400 for an intermediate multiday class with a nationally known instructor, one can get the whole kit'n'kaboodle for ~$1200-1500, which is about the price for a decently equipped AR without training.

 

[ImBatman]

The lists above, while useful from a blue-sky perspective won't help unless we can put actual dollar amounts behind each item to include training.

Much like a custom car a CCW setup is going to be ever changing. You WILL try new things, you will have the drawer full of holsters as you get more experience, sights will come and go as you find things that work for your eyes better. As such it's really hard to nail a "spend X amount and you'll be set".

I'll second the recommendation to follow Chuck Haggard's rule of 3s. Be it sending a gun off for work or post shooting having it seized the simple fact is that a backup of your carry gun is damned good to have on hand. I'll exempt a direct copy of my BUG as it's the gun that gets shot the least and carried the least.

"Shotguns. I don't guage and really have minimal intrest in them at this point and time" In regards to this, I'd argue the prioritization is for a long gun not a rifle or shotgun. From John Publics perspective does it really matter if they have a rifle or shotgun? Both offer significantly better ballistics than a pistol, both increase hit probability over a pistol, both require training to get up to speed with. For the mission set of Mr. Public I'd argue either choice is going to meet the wickets that need met, and as long as the shooter is proficient with their choice it really doesn't matter for winning the gunfight. That's not to turn this into an AR vs Shotgun thread but for the average dude I see the requirement as a long gun not a rifle then a shotgun or vice versa.

 

[avtech850]

It definitely wasn't ment to be taken as a shotguns vs carbine comment at all. More so just a statement of were I am at in my training/aquisition cycle at this point in time.
I think it was Steve Fisher that said it, but whoever it was made a very compelling argument on how the average guy who grew up shooting dove and deer with an 870 might well be better suited with a guage then a carbine for home defense.

 

[Chris Taylor]

The discussion on rifle vs shotgun vs pistol for HD can be found here https://primaryandsecondary.com/for...ome-defense-carbine-vs-shotgun-vs-pistol.151/

But yeah, that's not the topic under consideration.

 

[22F]

Good discussion Chris.

For me, in a very non-permissive environment, it's been almost the complete opposite.

I'm not allowed to own a modern, sporting arm like an AR-15. Hence why I went for the Marlin 336. As per my legal requirements, it's for hunting.

As a backup, I have a Marlin 1894c, setup exactly the same. It's secondary use is as a loaner should the wife need it.
In the American market, I believe such small arms are significantly cheaper - something to consider when on a limited budget.

My next purchases when funds permit will be to enter the handgun world with a Glock 17.

 

[treehopr]

Why blue sky? The purpose of this is to help John Q properly allocate his limited resources, instead of saving furiously to get a tool he may not need. Better to save and spend on the most useful tool first (CCW pistol), rather than a tool that will see much more limited use.

Every person's situation, budget and needs will be different, and there are plenty of work arounds for some things that can drastically reduce the financial burden.

Plus, this wasn't intended as a "thou shalt buy this" topic, but to encourage debate and critical thought, and open people's eyes to possibilties they may not have considered. Many people get caught up in the thought that they need to be tactical robot ninja, when all John Q needs is a good CCW, a good rifle, and lots of good training.

My point is exactly that, each person has their own unique circumstances and making blanket recommendations about what to buy and in what order won't help unless we ask more questions.

Assuming John (or Jane) Q is a neophyte and doesn't know anything, I'd ask how old he is (under 21? no pistol for him in most states)
-Live alone?
-Spouse?
-Significant other?
-Roommates?
-Children at home?

Any previous experience with violence? Not just dishing it out but possibly being on the receiving end? Have they thought through what they are willing to do to protect themselves or their loved ones?

Posting the cost, not only gives them a better idea of how much money is actually involved to achieve and maintain some level of proficiency but also gives them an idea of whether they want to achieve that proficiency. If someone wants to buy a Steyr AUG because it looks cool but have no intention of using it as a HD weapon that's fine, not my job to piss in their cornflakes but if they decide they want an AR15 for SHTF, then they should understand the low and high end of those numbers.

Your breakdown of a hypothetical Glock 19 for CCW also doesn't capture all the potential costs.
-How much is a CCW license fee?
-Is the multi-day class local or will it require travel expenses?
-Eye and ear pro? Targets?
-Is the gun going to be locked up in a safe or gunbox?
-Ammo costs?
-Range fees for practice?

We all know how much work it takes to get proficient with a pistol, the only advantage of a pistol is its portability, if someone wasn't willing to make that investment in time and money i'd recommend a long gun. For ease of use, for potentially better ballistics and lower cost.

 

[Chris Taylor]

All those additional costs (which are absolutely something to consider), except the CCW fees, apply to a long gun as well. They're applicable to any gun, and minus consumables (ammo, targets, range fees, etc) are sunk costs, just like the gun itself.

My suggestion comes from a cost/benefit outlook. *If* someone wants/needs to acquire a gun for defense, and give themselves the most defensive bang for a limited buck, a quality basic CCW pistol is likely a better choice. It's something that they will have on their person most of the time.

No doubt a long gun is easier to train, and much more effective, but most places it's relegated to the range and strictly home defense usage. More expensive, less useful from a time/use perspective, from my POV, it's of less importance than a CCW pistol, but definitely a close number 2.

For some that may not be the case, but that's for them to decide, according to their circumstances.

Again, this isn't a "thou shalt buy" topic, but a discussion and critical thinking exercise. It's also to point out that no matter what option someone goes with, they don't always need a Roland Special for CCW, or a Hodge as a HD rifle. A basic G19 (or similar) or a decently equipped 6920, or maybe a good shotgun or a lever action 30-30, are also viable options in some situations.

Because every situation is different, there obviously can't be a one size fits all answer. We can make general suggestions and recommendations, but it comes down to the end user to think about their circumstances, and make the decision on what fits their needs best.

We just trying to make sure folks have as much info as possible.

@treehopr, thanks for adding to the discussion bud!

 

[Longeye]

It matters what perceived level of involvement the individual has as well. The clay shooter at the range who asks will get different answer than the solid but scared victim of domestic violence.

The reason is likelyhood of initial use versus recurring use.
The clay shooter is likely to have champagne budget, high interest in gaining and maintaining skill and low relative probability of "for real use".

The scared victim on the other hand, likely needs an good option immediately, may not have the time or resources to train at tribal levels, and is quite likely to use, or a least display the piece "for real" in the near future.

In addition to the TRO that doubles as toilet paper, the victim needs to get a pistol, a holster, a quick class on use and mindset, then focus on always having it on body. For this person it can be as simple as: "Here is a crime scene picture of a victim that let her ex-husband in the door "Just to talk things over"." "You don't want to end up like her. This is how you load it. Now show me 3x what I just did. See these bumps on top? This one is most important. Line it up between these two, and press the trigger when the center/ front one is in the middle of his chest. Got it? Keep doing that until he changes shape or catches fire. Then call the cops and tell them you thought he was going to seriously hurt you or even kill you. When they get there, follow their commands. Understand? Repeat it back to me. Call me in a week, and I will show you some more things."