Level IV+ Options

[Zerret]

Hello all. I decided to go window shopping for an upgrade from my L210s, came across this "Adept Armor" and this whiz-bang super plate. $640, so $1280 for a set, but it claims it can stop really serious stuff at 6.5 pounds.

RF3 Armor Plate | COLOSSUS - Level IV Body Armor.

The Colossus is a future-proofed Level IV body armor plate, built strong enough to counter most modern AP threats today's and tomorrow.

www.adeptarmor.com

I'm familiar with the issue regarding NIJ certification (which this plate seems to lack). I'm curious as to whether anyone has personal experience with the company. All responses appreciated!

 

[shoobe01]

Yeah... not clear where Adept plates are made, and no certification for ANY of their products, hard pass.


They seem to be similar in concept to the ShotStop Duritium which I like, are lighter and less prone to damage than many other types, seem like solid performers, are certified, etc.

They have a Level IV+ multicurve unless I am misreading:

Duritium® IV+HA Level IV Body Armor (Bulk Agency Orders Only)

The IV+HA Level IV Body Armor is only available for Agencies with a 50 plate minimum order. As an alternative you may be interested in our Level IV HS Plate. Protection Type/Level: Level IV Compliance Tested: U.S. Level IV Special Threat Testing: 5.56x45mm 55 grain ball (M193), 7.62x39mm PS...

www.shotstop.net

 

[Default.mp3]

Yeah... not clear where Adept plates are made, and no certification for ANY of their products, hard pass.


They seem to be similar in concept to the ShotStop Duritium which I like, are lighter and less prone to damage than many other types, seem like solid performers, are certified, etc.

They have a Level IV+ multicurve unless I am misreading:

Duritium® IV+HA Level IV Body Armor (Bulk Agency Orders Only)

The IV+HA Level IV Body Armor is only available for Agencies with a 50 plate minimum order. As an alternative you may be interested in our Level IV HS Plate. Protection Type/Level: Level IV Compliance Tested: U.S. Level IV Special Threat Testing: 5.56x45mm 55 grain ball (M193), 7.62x39mm PS...

www.shotstop.net

The problem with the Duritium IV+HA that the Colossus specifically has an advantage over is that the Duritium IV+HA utilizes a UHMWPE border, so the ceramic strike plate does not extend from edge-to-edge (a marketing point that the Colossus specifically points out).

The Colossus webpage certainly says all the right things to me for it to at least pass the initial smell test on their claims (that is to say, their claims are plausible at the very least; ceramic strike face, backed by UHMWPE, with additional padding as a backer). That being said, I tend to be quite conservative on when it comes to something like armor, so I would be quite leery of actually trusting them, given their lack of any real lab testing (a single test run on a single sample does not inspire confidence in me), wonky aesthetics, and some of their other rather odd products (scalable armor system, steel helmets, etc.).

 

[Zerret]

Thanks for the info. I agree about the Duritium's edge problem. I did a little reading and came across these webpages below that indicate Adept Armor is the same as Diamond Age.

Explains the steel helmet at least. Might provide a clue as to where the plate is made as well.

The New Body Armor Bible from Adept Armor - The Mag Life

It rated #1 in new releases in the "Military Technology" on Amazon. Might be a good read if you want to know more about body armor systems.

gunmagwarehouse.com

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jake-ganor

 

[shoobe01]

Yeah, I see the claims for construction differences etc, but the lack of certification, or any independent testing, makes me not that interested. We've seen people before straight up lie about even construction and materials.

Agree also that if just one product that wasn't tested I'd go "yet" and maybe then, maybe. But their whole line of weird stuff?

(ShotStop was one example I know, there are other multi-component plates. I also am not freaked out about the border as it's narrow, sometimes very small from the zigzagging hexagons, and unless I am out of touch with newer stuff, solid ceramics didn't always stop with full value anyway so it was part of my plate size consideration anyway.)

 

[Zerret]

Yeah, I see the claims for construction differences etc, but the lack of certification, or any independent testing, makes me not that interested. We've seen people before straight up lie about even construction and materials.

Agree also that if just one product that wasn't tested I'd go "yet" and maybe then, maybe. But their whole line of weird stuff?

(ShotStop was one example I know, there are other multi-component plates. I also am not freaked out about the border as it's narrow, sometimes very small from the zigzagging hexagons, and unless I am out of touch with newer stuff, solid ceramics didn't always stop with full value anyway so it was part of my plate size consideration anyway.)

Valid points. The NIJ has a fair hit requirement imbedded in the current .06 standard which includes a "shot-to-edge" requirement. See 7.6.1: https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/223054.pdf

"7.6.1 Minimum Shot-to-Edge Distance The armor manufacturer shall define the acceptable minimum shot-to-edge distance for each armor model and each threat that will be tested against the armor. For armor types subjected to a single threat and for the lighter weight threat round when two threats are specified, the minimum shot-to-edge distance shall not be greater than 51 mm (2.0 in). For the heavier threat round when two threats are specified, the minimum shot-to-edge distance shall not be greater than 76 mm (3.0 in). Table 4 indicates which rounds are lighter weight and heavier weight."

So the Duritium could technically have a border as wide as two inches on every side and still be capable of attaining NIJ certification. While I doubt the border is that large, it does still concern me about coverage compared to a full strike face plate. It's about half the price of the Hesco 4800 but quite a bit lighter, so the border has to be fairly substantial to make that happen.

To switch gears though, I am more than equally apprehensive about the Colossus. Adept claims it can stop M993 and Swiss P AP at full velocities, which would make it a lot tougher than anything in RMA or shotstop's roster, but then that raises the question of whether those rounds are foreseeable in the near future. And again, in your words, it's a weird plate in a whole line of weird stuff from a company with little independent testing.

Then, again, to play devil's advocate, there's no way to attain NIJ certification for M993 or Swiss P AP. The standard doesn't have a "Level V" for those. Even then, a Level IV certification would do wonders for the plate's credibility.

 

[shoobe01]

Shotstop edge is, apparently, just because it's hexagons. I have told them they are dummies for not making this super clear, showing it x-rayed or being assembled, etc but I am no one, they don't care

Unclear to me that anyone else with multi-part construction does better. Do we know for sure, have x-rays and stuff of those? Be interesting to compare but I've never seen anything solid.

They said to me when I asked, in part, about the edge sizes, way more than I asked but the size is in the bold:

The ballistic protective polyethylene edge perimeter is not fair shot rated to stop M855 and M2 AP bullets, but offers ballistic protection against 5.56x45mm 55 grain ball (M193), 7.62x39mm PS Ball, 9mm, 357 Mag, 44 Mag. The ~.25"- 0.5" edging or buffer was engineered to allow for lighter weight, mobility, longevity and durability against corner cracking and drops...

Due to the multi-curve design of the HA plate the AP ballistic protective materials (hexagon tiles) restrict full edge-to-edge AP protection. The edge contains a combination of ballistic protection against 5.56x45mm 55 grain ball (M193), 7.62x39mm PS Ball, 9mm, 357 Mag, 44 Mag and a buffer for durability against drops or other collisions.

I recall older all-ceramic plates including the previous otherwise great multi-hit ones I had actually failing (non certification, somewhat ad hoc) testing for edge shots. I bet my tolerance is not just letter of the law Fair Shot but my old man brain thinking that's just what it is, and there are better-to-the-edge plates today.

To the last graf of yours: Is there any thought — with improved technology in ballistics and especially in armor — to add any level of certification to include true AP? Since the same NIJ cert is used for non-worn armor (shields, door inserts, etc) it would seem very relevant to be able to buy a specific certified threat level instead of the + doing so much work.

 

[Zerret]

I went ahead and checked the NIJ compliant list and found that Shotstop's plates are all prefixed with D's. Going off of a hunch, I then cross-referenced that with Tencate's site. Turns out that Shotstop's plates are seemingly all manufactured by Tencate. Given that Tencate has a very good industry reputation, I'll certainly give their hexagon construction the benefit of the doubt. I've read extraordinary things about their "LIBA" plates too, pity those aren't sold to the public.

That 0.5" (at worst) edge isn't too bad either, and as you say, edge hits on normal plates are often failures anyway. It helps that the edge on the Shotstop / Tencate can still handle weaker threats. It's a lot better than the 1" edge on every side of the (IIRC now discontinued) RMA 1189 as well.

To your last point, I definitely agree that it's about time the NIJ introduces an "RF4" with the .07 standard so we can standardize M993 protection instead of this wishy-washy this Level IV can do it at X velocity, but this other one can do it at Y situation. It's odd that we rely on unofficial +'s so much, given that a IV+ or RF3+ can be anything from a plate that can take an arbitrarily-large amount of hits to a plate that can protect against .50 Cal M33 FMJ at a standoff distance like the Adept Armor Colossus allegedly can.

Which takes us back to the Colossus. If Adept can prove its capabilities, then it would probably give most Hesco plates like the 4601 a run for their money. About the same weight, similar price, thickness isn't terribly different, and the Adept plate claims to stop threats vastly outside the 4601's abilities. On the other hand, I suppose the advantage of the Shotstop is that it is two pounds lighter, much thinner, and still stops most common rounds.

Then again, that leads us to the question of whether things might change about what's common or not in the future.

 

[Brendog1776]

The shotstop guys, are the modern snake oil salesman. While some of the plates are good to go, claims they make are dubious.

 

[Zerret]

The shotstop guys, are the modern snake oil salesman. While some of the plates are good to go, claims they make are dubious.

I did notice on their product description sheets the following line:
"All weights are ± 4% or .50 lbs. (0.23kg), whichever is greater. Specifications are subject to change at any time. Not responsible for printed errors."

So, if assume worst case scenario, the aforementioned Duritium plate can actually be anywhere from 4lb to 5lb instead of just 4.5lb. It would obviously be a little weird if it came out a half pound lighter and somehow wasn't compromised, so I'm going to assume the half-pound range is really meant for the Level IV+ plate to be heavier than the advertised 4.5lb.

Tencate - the apparent manufacturer - doesn't seem to use this fine print on their end, so I suspect Shotstop is overselling the plates.

 

[Default.mp3]

I did notice on their product description sheets the following line:
"All weights are ± 4% or .50 lbs. (0.23kg), whichever is greater. Specifications are subject to change at any time. Not responsible for printed errors."

So, if assume worst case scenario, the aforementioned Duritium plate can actually be anywhere from 4lb to 5lb instead of just 4.5lb. It would obviously be a little weird if it came out a half pound lighter and somehow wasn't compromised, so I'm going to assume the half-pound range is really meant for the Level IV+ plate to be heavier than the advertised 4.5lb.

Tencate - the apparent manufacturer - doesn't seem to use this fine print on their end, so I suspect Shotstop is overselling the plates.

That hedging on the weights is actually direct from TenCate. You can find TenCate's .pdf spec sheets that use that exact same verbiage.

 

[Zerret]

That hedging on the weights is actually direct from TenCate. You can find TenCate's .pdf spec sheets that use that exact same verbiage.

Ah, I see. Thanks for the info!

 

[HighTower]

Hello all. I decided to go window shopping for an upgrade from my L210s, came across this "Adept Armor" and this whiz-bang super plate. $640, so $1280 for a set, but it claims it can stop really serious stuff at 6.5 pounds.

RF3 Armor Plate | COLOSSUS - Level IV Body Armor.

The Colossus is a future-proofed Level IV body armor plate, built strong enough to counter most modern AP threats today's and tomorrow.

www.adeptarmor.com

I'm familiar with the issue regarding NIJ certification (which this plate seems to lack). I'm curious as to whether anyone has personal experience with the company. All responses appreciated!

Jake provides certs

 

[HighTower]

Yeah... not clear where Adept plates are made, and no certification for ANY of their products, hard pass.


They seem to be similar in concept to the ShotStop Duritium which I like, are lighter and less prone to damage than many other types, seem like solid performers, are certified, etc.

They have a Level IV+ multicurve unless I am misreading:

Duritium® IV+HA Level IV Body Armor (Bulk Agency Orders Only)

The IV+HA Level IV Body Armor is only available for Agencies with a 50 plate minimum order. As an alternative you may be interested in our Level IV HS Plate. Protection Type/Level: Level IV Compliance Tested: U.S. Level IV Special Threat Testing: 5.56x45mm 55 grain ball (M193), 7.62x39mm PS...

www.shotstop.net

Reach out to jake himself for info.

He aint greasy like SS or AMI

 

[Default.mp3]

Reach out to jake himself for info.

He aint greasy like SS or AMI

Curious to hear the issues about AMI. They were at one point quite highly rated by Roberts (AKA DocGKR), though this was years and years ago.

 

[Matt Landfair]

Reach out to jake himself for info.

He aint greasy like SS or AMI

First I heard something negative about AMI

 

[Zerret]

Jake provides certs

They don't appear on the NIJ CPL at all. Would they be from a European agency? I noticed the Colossus is technically advertised as "VPAM-12", which is a different standard entirely. https://www.edrmagazine.eu/adept-armor-introduces-the-first-future-proofed-armor-plate-the-colossus

 

[Zerret]

Yeah... not clear where Adept plates are made, and no certification for ANY of their products, hard pass.


They seem to be similar in concept to the ShotStop Duritium which I like, are lighter and less prone to damage than many other types, seem like solid performers, are certified, etc.

They have a Level IV+ multicurve unless I am misreading:

Duritium® IV+HA Level IV Body Armor (Bulk Agency Orders Only)

The IV+HA Level IV Body Armor is only available for Agencies with a 50 plate minimum order. As an alternative you may be interested in our Level IV HS Plate. Protection Type/Level: Level IV Compliance Tested: U.S. Level IV Special Threat Testing: 5.56x45mm 55 grain ball (M193), 7.62x39mm PS...

www.shotstop.net

According to this article, their manufacturing and distribution facility is somewhere in Europe.

Adept Armor Opens European Facility and Distribution • Spotter Up

Tulsa, Okla. (March 2022) – Adept Armor, an armor system engineering firm, is responding to urgent requests from European partners for personal protection products such as the Adept Armor NovaSteel™ helmet and Adept’s Mantis Armor Plate and Storm Systems. In the wake of the aggressive attacks by...

spotterup.com

"Adept Armor has quickly responded by pulling together resources to complete its European-based production and distribution facility, which was already months in the making, to meet demand."

 

[shoobe01]

I wasn't sure how to read that, if they mean that's The Facility or the facility In Europe. Press releases are terrible, and I spent years at a marketing agency

 

[Brendog1776]

I did notice on their product description sheets the following line:
"All weights are ± 4% or .50 lbs. (0.23kg), whichever is greater. Specifications are subject to change at any time. Not responsible for printed errors."

So, if assume worst case scenario, the aforementioned Duritium plate can actually be anywhere from 4lb to 5lb instead of just 4.5lb. It would obviously be a little weird if it came out a half pound lighter and somehow wasn't compromised, so I'm going to assume the half-pound range is really meant for the Level IV+ plate to be heavier than the advertised 4.5lb.

Tencate - the apparent manufacturer - doesn't seem to use this fine print on their end, so I suspect Shotstop is overselling the plates.

Yup, they are rebranded Tencate plates, which that part I like for Tencate makes some great armor. What I don't like is their "duritium" BS. They say that is why their plates are lightweight is because of duritium. Looking closer, their ceramics are lightweight, for they do not have edge to edge protection. A 10x12 is an 8x10.

Adept armor seems a dubious to me, I am not 100% sure about them.