TANGO451
Newbie
They are not the majority of our rifles. And they aren't going through the process of ordering more. The SRT guys have 14.5"
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LE Duty Rifle
- Thread starter Bourneshooter
- Start date
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Bourneshooter
Blue Line Sheepdog
Based on comments here, it seems generally only the SWAT guys get stuff like:
SBR
Suppressor
F/A
DBAL/PEQ
I agree on the DM program, but that is a separate topic. Maybe one for the LE forum so it can include anyone who has experience with it and policy.
ptrlcop
Established
I used to really want an SBR but the more I cleared structures with a 16inch gun the less I thought I needed a shorter one. If I were going to run suppressed, I could see going shorter to keep OAL near where a 16inch gun would be.
If I had the available funds for MFALs I would much rather spend it on getting my guys more and better training. I could make an argument for putting QMS triggers in all of the rifles since the cost is pretty low and I think they make the guns much more shootable, particularly when making tight shots under time stress.
Currently, my 5.56(10.5 bushmaster) gun is a special purpose tool that I only use for planned operations involving vehicle assaults(CI rescues) or entries(search warrants). It sports a T1, Fury, X300, Vtac sling, gunfighter CH, QMS trigger and MOE handguard.
If I were going to build a GP 5.56 gun (with unlimited funds for ME, not general issue) it would look like this:
12.5 BCM stainless barrel, 10inch KMR, Griffin Armament Recce 5 can
BCM gunfighter grip, B5 SOPMOD
1-4 nightforce NXS
Giessle SD-C
M600 ultra
Steiner DBAL
My reason for a magnified Optic is that, in a patrol setting, I spent more time looking at things/threats from distance than I did encountering them on entries. If I bring out a rifle, I want to dominate my space and I think a little magnification helps me do that.
If I had the available funds for MFALs I would much rather spend it on getting my guys more and better training. I could make an argument for putting QMS triggers in all of the rifles since the cost is pretty low and I think they make the guns much more shootable, particularly when making tight shots under time stress.
Currently, my 5.56(10.5 bushmaster) gun is a special purpose tool that I only use for planned operations involving vehicle assaults(CI rescues) or entries(search warrants). It sports a T1, Fury, X300, Vtac sling, gunfighter CH, QMS trigger and MOE handguard.
If I were going to build a GP 5.56 gun (with unlimited funds for ME, not general issue) it would look like this:
12.5 BCM stainless barrel, 10inch KMR, Griffin Armament Recce 5 can
BCM gunfighter grip, B5 SOPMOD
1-4 nightforce NXS
Giessle SD-C
M600 ultra
Steiner DBAL
My reason for a magnified Optic is that, in a patrol setting, I spent more time looking at things/threats from distance than I did encountering them on entries. If I bring out a rifle, I want to dominate my space and I think a little magnification helps me do that.
ta2d_cop
Member
My agency is finally moving into the 21st century and ordering rifles. They ordered Smith and Wesson M&P 15Ts with EOtech XPS2s. I recommended Colts or LMTs but what do I know. 
We will be shooting Hornady TAP Urban 55gr, again not my recommendation, I like the Speer GD, but at this point I'll take what I can get. It has been a five year fight since the day I put the proposed policy and training program in the Chief's hand ready to go. Nothing like speed and efficiency to help get the job done.
I think the key to a patrol rifle, as stated by others, is simplicity. No need to make it all high speed low drag. Gun, sling, light and sight.
Personally I like a 14.5 or 16 with rear BUIS and an EOtech XPS2. I also run either a Surefire Scout or M952V. Nato A2 FH, Pmags or HK HRMs, and a VTAC sling with HK hooks.
We will be shooting Hornady TAP Urban 55gr, again not my recommendation, I like the Speer GD, but at this point I'll take what I can get. It has been a five year fight since the day I put the proposed policy and training program in the Chief's hand ready to go. Nothing like speed and efficiency to help get the job done.I think the key to a patrol rifle, as stated by others, is simplicity. No need to make it all high speed low drag. Gun, sling, light and sight.
Personally I like a 14.5 or 16 with rear BUIS and an EOtech XPS2. I also run either a Surefire Scout or M952V. Nato A2 FH, Pmags or HK HRMs, and a VTAC sling with HK hooks.
Bourneshooter
Blue Line Sheepdog
The issue I have with Eotechs is that they have zero battery life, and you have to turn them on. I want that patrol rifle to require charging handle to be ran for the gun to be ready to fight with.
FailureDrill
Member
A lot of WIN contained in this post.
"It sports a T1, Fury, X300, Vtac sling, gunfighter CH, QMS trigger and MOE handguard."
Why the Fury and X300?
Why the Fury and X300?
ROMPER
Amateur
FailureDrill did an excellent job explaining things. I am currently running our patrol rifle program, merged between a few agencies, roughly same size group it sounds.
I couldn't agree more with what was said. Most of my guys gun are in the 14.5 (pinned) and 16 guns. Our agency guns are all issued so I did them with 12.5" barrels, personal opinion is that they are more manageable in and around vehicles and structures while still being long enough to reach out to around 30o yards.
As far as lights and optics, we run ACOGs, generally 1.5x15 or 2.0x20, our entry guys carry Aimpoint T-1s, lights we all run either Surefire P2X or P3X Fury lights.
Patrol rifle is indeed a different animal, when I took over the program it was ran by one of our guys who came from the sniper side of the house and he did an excellent job of teaching positional shooting, understanding deflection and how to aggressively run your sight adjustments, when he asked me to teach with him I brought more close quarter and manipulation to the game.
Over the last few years, with the original guys retirement I took over the program and have come to the rationalization that my snipers run everything outside of 100 yards, my entry guys everything inside of 25 yards (as both bitch about having to do anything else), so my patrol rifle guys will run everything in between.
Gun setup is important, but so is what is taught and tactics.
Being my catch all (patrol rifle), working with my guys I not only have to teach them getting into and out of position as they will also most likely be used in a perimeter position until the teams are called out, but enough CQB so they can be comfortable clearing structures, and things like working in tandem with other patrol officers so they can do things like bounding, improvised shooting positions because of available cover, and how to work behind cover and manipulation.
R
I couldn't agree more with what was said. Most of my guys gun are in the 14.5 (pinned) and 16 guns. Our agency guns are all issued so I did them with 12.5" barrels, personal opinion is that they are more manageable in and around vehicles and structures while still being long enough to reach out to around 30o yards.
As far as lights and optics, we run ACOGs, generally 1.5x15 or 2.0x20, our entry guys carry Aimpoint T-1s, lights we all run either Surefire P2X or P3X Fury lights.
Patrol rifle is indeed a different animal, when I took over the program it was ran by one of our guys who came from the sniper side of the house and he did an excellent job of teaching positional shooting, understanding deflection and how to aggressively run your sight adjustments, when he asked me to teach with him I brought more close quarter and manipulation to the game.
Over the last few years, with the original guys retirement I took over the program and have come to the rationalization that my snipers run everything outside of 100 yards, my entry guys everything inside of 25 yards (as both bitch about having to do anything else), so my patrol rifle guys will run everything in between.
Gun setup is important, but so is what is taught and tactics.
Being my catch all (patrol rifle), working with my guys I not only have to teach them getting into and out of position as they will also most likely be used in a perimeter position until the teams are called out, but enough CQB so they can be comfortable clearing structures, and things like working in tandem with other patrol officers so they can do things like bounding, improvised shooting positions because of available cover, and how to work behind cover and manipulation.
R
And they can shift zeros. At least the several 552's I sent back to L3 and the personal one I used to use for duty did. Unacceptable.
I do not think that there is any reason in this day and age that a patrol rifle cannot be individually issued versus a pool rifle, or at the very least allowed as a personal purchase item with specifications. I feel any barrel length from 11.5-16 inches should be allowed for patrol purposes. Guys with motors and smaller vehicles that compete for space may be better suited with shorter 11.5-12.5 inch guns, while 14.5-16 may suit another agencies preferences better. So long as it is a quality purchase that is kept in the front compartment where it can be accessed when needed, those minimum and maximum lengths do not have any huge ballistic advantage or disadvantage or another for these environments.
I disagree with Bourneshooter and Failure Drill on the requirement for a freefloat handguard. Lots of badguys have died from non-freefloated equipment. It adds $300-400 to the cost of the carbine, and that may mean the difference between having and not having a RDS for some agencies. The POI shift that can be caused by sling tensions is to be considered, but I feel its lower in priority for a basic patrol capability. Now, if it was a DM/PPM/DMR rated LEO, then I can see pushing it up on the priority list a bit. My opinion along with 89-cents for that cup of coffee is that the Magpul handguards are actually a decent choice for a minimum patrol rifle standard. They have the capability of attaching light mounts and sling sockets and are affordable.
I am under the belief that irons are mandatory for patrol. I've been around Aimpoints long enough that I've never had to transition to a BUIS because of a optic being broken. But I have seen optics that batteries crapped out when they were needed. Plus, if an optic has to be taken out of service for some reason, whether it be the zero is affected, or repair, etc, the whole weapon isn't deadlined because there are sights still. This is important for the LEO that supplies his own equipment.
I personally feel irons ran in the up position should be the minimum standard. In the winter, I start a day shift in hours of darkness, which change to a possible bright sunny day against a white snow backdrop, and finish my shift again in hours of darkness. It is impractical and nearly impossible with weapon locks to continually change my RDS adjustment to match the current light during the day. If I set it to be seen in the brightest part of the day, its blooming when I go inside a dark structure, or forgot to change it when it gets dark. The same goes for guys that work afternoon shifts during the entire year. The main reason for using an Aimpoint besides durability is the ability to leave the dot on so an LEO doesn't have to consider his dot setting when he's deploying it under stress, such as backing up another officer on a high risk stop or coming to the aid of one that just called "Shots Fired." I can see the iron sights just fine in daylight conditions. I cannot see them in low light, which is also where the RDS dot gives me an advantage. So the dot gets set each shift to a level for lower light at the time. If I cannot see the dot because the daylight outside is too bright, then my irons are right there, just like my handgun sights.
Like the other guys, sling, light, RDS. When it comes to an optic, agreed from my experience is that Aimpoint is the standard for a patrol optic. I know of some people that have been running the EoTech XPS's with success for them. I have a very very hard time considering them based on previous performance from other models. I personally feel other optics like magnifiers or low powered variables are ok with patrol officers, but I am in favor of a policy of increased training and demonstration of skills first to help avoid Walmart 3x9's mounted with a bipod on the front.
Sling needs to be a 2-pt that can be adjusted one handed. I prefer the VCAS, but as slings are a highly personal choice, I'm ok with any quality choice that allows the weapon to easily be secured to ones person through quick adjustment like VCAS & VTAC slings prove they already do.
For me, the Surefire EAG Fury with the click switch sets a standard, with either the 500 or 1000 lumen options. Costs are reasonable.
I don't think lasers need to be on a basic patrol rifle, but I am in favor of patrol LEO's that have demonstrated a compentency level to be allowed to use them, similar to what I think should be needed for low powered variables. The more accessories like lasers and optics are allowed, however, the more a basic minimum equipment standard needs to be set to keep guys from opening up the CTD catalog or putting stuff on that they don't understand the requirements of. I know of a PITA doctorate student/PT LEO of all of 2-3 years try to spec out a departments pool rifles with a Streamlight TLR2, amongst several other issues. <sigh>
I would love to have every officer issued with some form of barrier blind ammunition. I think someday more LEO's will get there. But with costs these days of $1 per round, some agencies that have purchased these rounds will only issue enough for 1-2 20-rd magazines at times. On the other hand, a minimum standard needs to be set as well. I was once issued Silver Bear crap, and I know of other departments that still issue FMJ's due to costs. Doc Roberts has tested various loads over the years, and at a minimum I feel the Black Hills 55gr SP's should be issued if costs are a factor. This also allows remanufactured training ammunition to be purchased that's very affordable.
I've been working with a patrol rifle for about 18 years now. I'm rated as a patrol rifle instructor in my state, and I've been working on building some programs on the side for agencies in my region. While I would love to have the ideal standards a lot of us work with, I also know the realities of Yadontneeditville politics and budgets. The standards above to me balance out realities and desires the best, and still allow the job to get done.
I disagree with Bourneshooter and Failure Drill on the requirement for a freefloat handguard. Lots of badguys have died from non-freefloated equipment. It adds $300-400 to the cost of the carbine, and that may mean the difference between having and not having a RDS for some agencies. The POI shift that can be caused by sling tensions is to be considered, but I feel its lower in priority for a basic patrol capability. Now, if it was a DM/PPM/DMR rated LEO, then I can see pushing it up on the priority list a bit. My opinion along with 89-cents for that cup of coffee is that the Magpul handguards are actually a decent choice for a minimum patrol rifle standard. They have the capability of attaching light mounts and sling sockets and are affordable.
I am under the belief that irons are mandatory for patrol. I've been around Aimpoints long enough that I've never had to transition to a BUIS because of a optic being broken. But I have seen optics that batteries crapped out when they were needed. Plus, if an optic has to be taken out of service for some reason, whether it be the zero is affected, or repair, etc, the whole weapon isn't deadlined because there are sights still. This is important for the LEO that supplies his own equipment.
I personally feel irons ran in the up position should be the minimum standard. In the winter, I start a day shift in hours of darkness, which change to a possible bright sunny day against a white snow backdrop, and finish my shift again in hours of darkness. It is impractical and nearly impossible with weapon locks to continually change my RDS adjustment to match the current light during the day. If I set it to be seen in the brightest part of the day, its blooming when I go inside a dark structure, or forgot to change it when it gets dark. The same goes for guys that work afternoon shifts during the entire year. The main reason for using an Aimpoint besides durability is the ability to leave the dot on so an LEO doesn't have to consider his dot setting when he's deploying it under stress, such as backing up another officer on a high risk stop or coming to the aid of one that just called "Shots Fired." I can see the iron sights just fine in daylight conditions. I cannot see them in low light, which is also where the RDS dot gives me an advantage. So the dot gets set each shift to a level for lower light at the time. If I cannot see the dot because the daylight outside is too bright, then my irons are right there, just like my handgun sights.
Like the other guys, sling, light, RDS. When it comes to an optic, agreed from my experience is that Aimpoint is the standard for a patrol optic. I know of some people that have been running the EoTech XPS's with success for them. I have a very very hard time considering them based on previous performance from other models. I personally feel other optics like magnifiers or low powered variables are ok with patrol officers, but I am in favor of a policy of increased training and demonstration of skills first to help avoid Walmart 3x9's mounted with a bipod on the front.
Sling needs to be a 2-pt that can be adjusted one handed. I prefer the VCAS, but as slings are a highly personal choice, I'm ok with any quality choice that allows the weapon to easily be secured to ones person through quick adjustment like VCAS & VTAC slings prove they already do.
For me, the Surefire EAG Fury with the click switch sets a standard, with either the 500 or 1000 lumen options. Costs are reasonable.
I don't think lasers need to be on a basic patrol rifle, but I am in favor of patrol LEO's that have demonstrated a compentency level to be allowed to use them, similar to what I think should be needed for low powered variables. The more accessories like lasers and optics are allowed, however, the more a basic minimum equipment standard needs to be set to keep guys from opening up the CTD catalog or putting stuff on that they don't understand the requirements of. I know of a PITA doctorate student/PT LEO of all of 2-3 years try to spec out a departments pool rifles with a Streamlight TLR2, amongst several other issues. <sigh>
I would love to have every officer issued with some form of barrier blind ammunition. I think someday more LEO's will get there. But with costs these days of $1 per round, some agencies that have purchased these rounds will only issue enough for 1-2 20-rd magazines at times. On the other hand, a minimum standard needs to be set as well. I was once issued Silver Bear crap, and I know of other departments that still issue FMJ's due to costs. Doc Roberts has tested various loads over the years, and at a minimum I feel the Black Hills 55gr SP's should be issued if costs are a factor. This also allows remanufactured training ammunition to be purchased that's very affordable.
I've been working with a patrol rifle for about 18 years now. I'm rated as a patrol rifle instructor in my state, and I've been working on building some programs on the side for agencies in my region. While I would love to have the ideal standards a lot of us work with, I also know the realities of Yadontneeditville politics and budgets. The standards above to me balance out realities and desires the best, and still allow the job to get done.
My Place in MI
Patrol Guys can carry Colt LE 6920 or Colt HBAR 20"
Optics - Eotech or Aimpoint
Magnified optics or magnifiers are allowed upon approval of commander
Lights are allowed
SWAT guys
just changed over to all Semi auto Colt 6933
Surefire 900A
and Eotech with magnifer.
Mine is
Colt 6920
VIckers Sling
B5 Stock
Fury Scout light
DD 12" light rail
Afg
we issue 64 Grain TRU from federal.
Patrol Guys can carry Colt LE 6920 or Colt HBAR 20"
Optics - Eotech or Aimpoint
Magnified optics or magnifiers are allowed upon approval of commander
Lights are allowed
SWAT guys
just changed over to all Semi auto Colt 6933
Surefire 900A
and Eotech with magnifer.
Mine is
Colt 6920
VIckers Sling
B5 Stock
Fury Scout light
DD 12" light rail
Afg
we issue 64 Grain TRU from federal.
My actual issued duty rifle is a shorty Colt. If now has a different rail section and light than in the picture. The suppressor is an older Surefire.
Truth be told though, the rifle below (apologies for the bad picture) is my preferred rifle. The minimal mechanical offset has a lot going for it.
Truth be told though, the rifle below (apologies for the bad picture) is my preferred rifle. The minimal mechanical offset has a lot going for it.
Personal guns are OK, approved by Rangemaster to include any mods after it is initially signed off. Mods to department guns are OK, approved and installed by Rangemaster. All guns are inspected annually.
FailureDrill
Member
Same as Bill, we have department issued guns and personal purchase. We have an approved list of rifle brands, optics, barrel length, etc. We don't inspect annually (hopefully that will change) and rely on instructors noticing non-compliant stuff. For LE dudes, I can send you a copy of our policy to your work email. If needed, just PM me.
jaycannon
Regular Member
Same Same...any mods have to be signed off on by the master of the range. Current issued guns are 16" Bushmasters. We are slowly upgrading buying BCM 11.5" uppers. We issue a sling, Aimpoint PRO, and surefire flashlight. 2x 10 HR rifle training days per year....if they show up. Currently every officer is issued a rifle, most detectives have them too.
Noveske makes a Key mod hand stop and rail covers. They are plastic but the kit is like $12. No issues on my class gun