LE Duty Rifle

Bourneshooter

Blue Line Sheepdog
I forgot to cross post my post on the old forum about LE Duty Rifles.

Since it came up on the Bookface page:

What is required for a LE Duty Rifle - Patrol/SWAT oriented.

  • Barrel Length
  • Handguard (length as free float is undisputedly a must)
  • Irons
  • Optics
  • Sling
  • Light
  • Lasers?
  • Ammo
Having a reason/background for your suggestion will help. We had several SME's on the bookface page dropping knowlege bombs that were a big help.
 

JB3

Amateur
Im a simple patrolman.
I run a 11.5 BCM LW upper on a Noveske lower.
10 inch KMR
Fixed Daniel Defense front and rear
T1
Padded BFG two point sling
Inforce xwml (will be replaced with Ultra for various reasons)
No laser
Agency issued three types of ammo with requirements for different uses. Policy is all fucked up.
 

JB3

Amateur
To preface this post I will say this was my set up at my prior agency and I am in the process of changing agencies.

That agency allowed SBRs. Only myself and one other guy ran them, everyone else ran 16's or 18's. Prior to my 11.5 I carried a 14.5 with a Saker flash hider for my can. The only time my gun is unsuppressed was at work per policy. The times I deployed a rifle was usually inside neighborhoods and on perimeters. What I really wanted to do was have my 11.5 and a 18 with a 1-4 optic and bipod so I had options and could arm another officer.

I like two point slings because the weight can be distributed over long periods of holding a perimeter or slung onto your back. When it was go time I wore it like a necklace so transitions were easier. I like fixed irons because they are always "on" in case the optic breaks. I had a Aimpoint PRO battery die on me 4 months after I got it. I was checking all my gear before shift and had to run irons until I could get batteries in the morning. I just like fixed irons.

I forgot to mention I have a TQ on the stock. I zip tied a BFG TQ NOW to the stock and slipped the TQ in place. Everyone at work gave me grief for it. Merrr….

My Inforce will be replaced because I'm not happy with it. The inforce wobbles around on the rail regardless where it was mounted. I love the 12 o'clock activation and will probably put an Ultra in its place.

The agency issued 45gr hollow points, 55gr Lawman FMJ, and 64gr Hi-Shok Soft Point. Policy said the 45gr will be carried in the gun but they only had enough to issue 20 rounds. We also had green tip floating around which just appeared in mags in the armory one day. I honestly don't remember what the policy said each round was to be used for. Everyone just carried issued 55gr FMJ in all the mags.
 

JB3

Amateur
Sorry for the multiple posts. I'm still trying to figure out how to post pictures properly.

IMG_2383.JPG
 

Bourneshooter

Blue Line Sheepdog
  • Barrel Length: 10.5" or 11.5" with a QD FA rated can. Allows Detectives/UC/SWAT guys the ability to make the gun shorter for discrete employment or for super confined space manuvering to be a tad easier.
  • Handguard (length as free float is undisputedly a must): 9" free float. For a general patrol rifle, full Pic rails so that L/R handed officers and emplace the WML where they prefer as well as sling mount and VFG/Handstop
  • Irons: Yes, I like a fixed FSP and a folded rear. I can Ghost ring the front sight within my RDS if it goes down for whatever unlikely reason.
  • Optics: RDS for all patrol rifles: T-1 or another constant on Aimpoint model (PRO/Comp M4). This allows the Officer to just need to remove weapon from rifle rack or gun bag and charge the weapon before brining it into the situation. SWAT/Snipers, T-1 or Comp M4 with a QD mounted 3X magnifier for rural operations/overwatch situations.
  • Sling: 2 Point Adjustable. Blue Force Gear VCAS/Victory or Magpul MS1 with QD front attachment, if not rear as well.
  • Light: Surefire Fury EAG model in Offset mount. If SWAT, switch for a Fury Scout to better interface with the IR/Vis Laser
  • Lasers?: Patrol guns, not a necessity. SWAT yes. After comparing the Green vis vs the Red vis on DBAL-I2's, I wouldn't buy a Red laser again. Since it seems the PEQ-15 is only Red at this time, it would be the Steiner eOptics (old LDI) DBAL-A3 would be my choice for this.
  • Ammo: Any 5.56 load that has passed the Barrier Blind load from the FBI tests. I'm issued 64gr Gold Dot, but would love a TSX load from Black Hills or the like. On ammo, due to a mix of PMAG and old USGI steel mags in inventory and use, I make our guys load all mags to 28 rounds. As soon as I can pull the USGI's from inventory, it will be officer's choice on the quantity (28 or 30).

I'm issued a Colt 16" HBAR rifle. It has a DD 12.0 FSP rail, X300, T-1 and BFG Victory Sling. Its fed 64gr Gold Dot from PMAG Gen2's.

I would love to have that switched to a 10.5" MK18 upper with Surefire SOCOM RC can with a Fury Scout and DBAL-A3.

Allowing officers to buy Magpul or BCM pistol grips and stocks and having the armorer install them is something I can see as beneficial, but that is my opinion, not that of a true SME.

The picture shows my issued rifle with a personally purchased M1 IR illuminator on the bottom. Top is a partially assembled SBR for size comparison in an attempt to get funding for SBR uppers and Cans.
100_3504.JPG
 
I run our patrol rifle course for our agency (about 700 sworn). With the help of another dude, we changed it from a 3 day BRM-fest taught by snipers to a rifle righting course that integrates marksmanship, manipulations and mindset. After working as a beat Cop for almost 13 years I've come to realize that the patrol rifle is it's own animal, separate from SWAT guns and other guns that fit in a particular context. One issue is that patrol dudes see SWAT and specialty units running single points and IR lasers and they feel this strong need to add that stuff to be successful (or look rad) when it doesn't fit in the patrol Cops context. That isn't to say that a SWAT guys gun doesn't work on patrol, or vice versa, but when we're training and equipping Cops that may not have more experience with a rifle then the 24 class we give them, we need to prioritize gear so they go down the right path.

For patrol rifles, I stress the SLR principle. Once we have a solid, reliable base gun, we add a Sling, Light and an RDS in that order. Then you shoot the living crap out of it and try to get better.

My below recommendations are for a rifle carried on the patrol side.
  • Barrel Length - 14.5" pinned or 16". Good velocity, reliability, less parts wear for frequent shooters, and manageable in tight vehicles and buildings if practiced.
  • Handguard (length as free float is undisputedly a must) - Yes, a long free float rail, at least 12" is a must in my mind. We spend a lot of time on perimeters and containment. To not take advantage of the shooting platforms all around us for support is retarded. This also makes for more flexibility in adapting to shooters of different sizes and adding lights, BUIS, etc.
  • Irons - Flip down, Magpul because they are cheap and light. Get them out of the way, the RDS is the A+ solution and with a reliable and tested optic, shouldn't be treated like it will break if looked at wrong.
  • Optics - RDS for patrol. AimPoint is the standard, not just because of reliability, but because of the constant on capability for a year (or more) at a time. Patrol dudes rolling up on a rapidly devolving situation don't need to concern themselves with pushing power buttons, or flipping covers, when then could already be shooting bad guys and getting songs sung about them.
  • Sling - Patrol is two point, full stop. The ability to stow the rifle when doing other stuff, like handcuffing suspects, can't be understated. Single points are for when you have a train of 12 dudes rolling into an objective, not 2 patrol guys doing contact/cover on a shithead or trying to put a TQT on their partner while their rifle bashes him in the face.
  • Light - Yes, I believe the Fury is the standard right now. Simple, durable and TONS of mounting solutions. Plus it also fits into a patrol dudes budget.
  • Lasers? - For patrol, no need and likely not authorized.
  • Ammo - We run Federal HST 64gr.
 

JD Williams

Member
Not a whole lot to add to Failure Drills post as far as need. I will throw out some things that I have seen not fit into the "value added" column. It's important to remember my context is a police patrol rifle. I would advise a "re-think that, dude" to any of my students who asked about the stuff below.

Bi-pod- for the patrol context it adds little to enhance a cops response to common rifle deployment scenarios. We don't operate in a prone world and with a longer free float rail use of the magazine as a mono pod largely makes it no more than a weight that gets in the way of your off hand placement. I see a lot of guys qualify and end up in an "upward facing dog" yoga position because the bi-pod is to tall.

Optic covers- the only time an optic cover should be used on an RDS is during the maintenance period unless it's clear. This is the only use I have for them. Keep rain off and keep solvent off..if cleaning is your thing.

Parade sling- it's a parade sling

Gun Loudener- the giant compensator that in a realistic scenario does not have a measurable affect on accuracy, speed, or signature reduction. It does however make everyone else hate you while you shoot next to them.

Magazine coupler- on the fence on this one but I have seen the first round on the second magazine walk forward under recoil or be knocked forward to advise against it. Wicked fast Tac-reloads if the bullets stay put though.

That stupid thing that clips to the mag well as a grip enhancer- it keeps the shooter grasping the mag-well which has been shown to slow down target to target transitions, induce malfunctions by impeding the ejection port, and generally relive you of some ability to mitigate recoil and steady the gun in alternate positions.

A few things, one troll's opinion...

On to the value added accessories!



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Monk

Newbie
For a patrol rifle I like simple. I have an issued one that I can't stand and a personal one that I really like. Personal preferences.

Mine is nothing special BCM upper on a Colt Lower.

16 inch Barrel with a mid length Gas System

Magpul MOE handguard. - Its light and I only run a flashlight and its not moving so I don't see a need for Keymod, MLOK or even a railed handguard.

I run a fixed front sight and a Troy folding rear sight. I just really like a fixed front sight on a patrol rifle.

Eotech 512 for an "optic" - It's inexpensive, I can get batteries at a 7-11 and I'm not running night vision. I would rather have an Aim Point but it was a gift from the wife so it rocks.

VTAC sling. Its simple and fast

It came with a BCM MOD 0 Compensator. I don't hate it so no need to change it.

I have a Terra Lux P4 or P5 on it. Bright as hell (500 lumen) and I haven't broken it yet.

Lasers? Nope. I have no real need to paint anything nor do I advocate using them to aim at anything.

We issue Speer Gold Dot 64 grain. They feed well and terminal performance in Our OIS have been very satisfactory.

I am all about simplicity on a patrol carbine. The less whiz bang stuff the better. A red dot, irons, a light and a good two point sling is a thing of beauty.
 

Monk

Newbie
I forgot to add A good extended latch on the charging handle. I like the medium BCM/Vltor Gunfighters.

For a Swat gun I would use a very different set up.

10.5 barrel with a suppressor and a rail to switch out cool guy stuff.

NVG compatible red dot

With a laser to paint
 

Bourneshooter

Blue Line Sheepdog
So for those who have answered there has been a theme of Patrol guns being 14.5/16" and SWAT being 10.5" or so, usually suppressed.

Do you see an advantage to allowing squared away and motivated patrol guys add the more "SWAT" centric stuff to their guns? Think of the prevalence of MACTAC and ALERRT for entire patrol squads. DARC trained guys know the necessity of some of this stuff, but I'm interested in what information I can get. Some patrol guys, not motivated, others way motivated.
 

jr1572

Amateur
In general, all of us at my agency that want carbines get 6933's issued to them with a aa non-nv eotech, a tlr-1 mounted at 6 o'clock, a GG&G BUIS, the sling that came from colt and the 2 20 round mags that came from colt.

SWAT guys have either 416's or 6933's that are setup differently than ours.

We cannot make any changes to the way the carbine is configured.

I'm more of an office dweller now but I'm not going to turn my carbine in. We went far to long without them depending on shotguns for all of our long gun needs...

JR1572
 

Monk

Newbie
BourneShooter

What do you mean by SWAT centric gear on the gun. I'm just trying to get a feel for your line of thought.

I would love to see a designated marksman program here. A few skilled people with a magnified optic could be a game changer in some scenarios.

Being able to have a suppressor would be very nice. I would probably still have most of my hearing if suppressors were more prevalent.

Our people are encouraged to have at least plate carriers with an active shooter kits. Many keep simple entry tools like modified FUBARS and everyone has a trauma kit. Shields are dispersed among supervisors. Although the majority are BatShields which I despise.
 

regdudedrtyjob

Regular Member
At my agency we are using pool Colt M4A1's, with Eotech's or ACOG's. Some have weapon lights, most don't. It's better than nothing, but far from great. The ability to effectively engage other humans at night time is extremely hampered. Agents are issued NVG's, but there are no IR laser aiming modules at the station level.

I think the wave of the future for patrol rifles means increasing night time and low light capabilities, and reducing the noise and flash of the rifle. SBR's that are suppressed make a lot of sense to me. They are pretty maneuverable in urban settings and getting in or out of a squad car quickly. Using a suppressor cuts down on noise and hearing damage passed on to officers using the rifles. Personally if I could run what I want at work, it would pretty much be a MK18-type rifle, with a can, Aimpoint T-1, dedicated white light, and something that allowed me to be effective if using NVGs. Something like this https://tnvc.com/shop/l3-insight-atpial-c-class1-ir-laser/ I guess. I would also prefer to use a suppressor.
 

TANGO451

Newbie
I think the regulations regarding suppressors and SBRs will keep them out of the hands of large PDs. We have standard 16in Bushmasters and military surplus M16s that are issued to qualified patrol officers. SRT has colt SBRs, Colt SMGs and HK MP7s


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AresGear_Jake

Stiffer Is Better
Vendor
If your patrol officers have M16s, there's no additional paperwork involved with swapping it to a short upper.


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