DMR/ RECCE Rifle scope and handguard opinions

KMo1205

KMo1205

Member
I've got a BCM midlength gas, 16" SS, Recce rifle that I'm building and I'm debating two things. The purpose of the build is to engage out to 600 yards +, or a traditional RECCE or DMR role. I'm planning to take a DMR class in the fall and more precision carbine classes next year. It will have a Harris Bi-pod.

1.) Optics options. I've narrowed it down to three different models, all Vortex. I've had really good experience with this brand and these scopes are within my price range, but if there other options I'm overlooking, please let me know. Viper PST 1-4x24, Viper PST 2.5-10x32 FFP (MRAD), Viper PST 2.5-10x44 (SFP, MRAD). If I use a 2.5-10x scope, I will use offset irons or micro red dot. Most RECCE rifles I've seen have a 1-4x scope, but I've also read on this forum that 2.5-10x scopes are the way to go for precision/ dmr carbine classes.

2.) Handguard. I'm either going with the BCM KMR 13" 7.7 oz, or the Centurion Arms 12" quad at 15.3 oz. Is it worth saving the weight with the KMR or is having a little extra weight up front nice on a more precision carbine? Or does it not matter?

Thanks for your opinions. I'm really wanting to expand my knowledge and range and thought this is the best way to do it. I'm also a civilian, if that makes a difference with recommendations.
 
CrazyDoc

CrazyDoc

Amateur
I have a Vortex 2.5-10x32 FFP MRAD. Very nice scope for the cash. Also I'm not the smartest at the while mildot gig so not having to do any more math helps lol.


Toole
 
Pat Tarrant

Pat Tarrant

Custom testicles
Staff member
Moderator
After going nits with a MK 12 type build, I parted it out an have rebuilt it as a 16" Recce/SPR hybrid. I went with a BCM 16" SS upper with their KMR 15" handguard. Very similar to your direction. I went with the Vortex 2.5-10x32 in a Larue mount. It is very light and handy compared with the 18" gun. I haven't had a chance to really test accuracy yet though. The only other optic I considered was the VXR Patrol 3-9.
 
KevinB

KevinB

Member
To me, it really comes down on personal preference. I rolled for several years with a Recce rifle with a 1-4x Short Dot -- these days I would use a 1-6 or 1-8x.
CarbinePerfectionII001.jpg

That was 2008 - so things have changed.

To me, I prefer to fight from the main scope - so if my anticipated role will do more in close than far, I will always opt for the 1-X type scope.
This goes back the pre-9/11 old TA01NSN ACOG DR Optic combo -- it was found the chinweld option sucked as once you got contact everyone defaulted to the COG - unless you had previously set a chinweld it just did not work well.

IF my main role is several hundred meters out - then the magnified optic with more power is my focus - and a "oh shit sight" MRDS is used with it.


I rolled for a few months in Afghan with a 1-4x Short Dot on my Mk18 - until I remembered always bring enough gun (was a clarifying moment...).


I'm at the point now that I like the bag of clubs analogy
11.5" 5.56mm with T1, that's my putter
14.5" 5.56mm w/ 1-6x is my sandtrap gun
14.5-16" 762 gun with a 1.1-8x CQBSS is a lighter fairway iron
16" 762 with 3-18x is a weak wood, or heavier iron
22-24" .338LM w/ 3.5-25x is my driver
 
KMo1205

KMo1205

Member
KevinB said:
I rolled for a few months in Afghan with a 1-4x Short Dot on my Mk18 - until I remembered always bring enough gun (was a clarifying moment...).


I'm at the point now that I like the bag of clubs analogy
11.5" 5.56mm with T1, that's my putter
14.5" 5.56mm w/ 1-6x is my sandtrap gun
14.5-16" 762 gun with a 1.1-8x CQBSS is a lighter fairway iron
16" 762 with 3-18x is a weak wood, or heavier iron
22-24" .338LM w/ 3.5-25x is my driver
Click to expand...

That's a good analogy. Its tough to have a "messiah" gun, that is one gun to solve all of your troubles and be everything for every situation.
 
KevinB

KevinB

Member
Life sucks sometimes and you only get to run what you brung -- so it's nice to have friends.

I like Recce guns - but these days my Recce gun choice would be a 14.5-16" 7.62mm gun
 
son of liberty

son of liberty

Newbie
R. Moran said:
to bad I don't know anything about golf, so that analogy is lost on me.
Click to expand...

He is saying that a weapon dedicated to its role , is always a better option then a single rifle trying to fill every role. I agree with his opinion though my use is limited to that of a civilian. Im not opposed to a weapon that is well suited to many roles, but it keep in mind you will always sacrifice some. My General purpose rifle , again being a civilian, is something along the lines of a MK12 mod H/Recce type thing.
 
N

nate89

Guest
I have been looking at the 2.5-10 Vortex scopes as well. I really wish they made a mix of the PST and the HS LR in 2.5-10. FFP MRAD with the XLR-1 Reticle instead of the EBR-1.
 
KMo1205

KMo1205

Member
I got my hands on a Vortex 2.5-10x32 FFP PST scope in MOA this weekend. A former Sniper with the Navy SEALs and current instructor of police snipers showed me his on a .308 bolt gun. He says that Vortex has always been really good to him and that there is certainly better glass out there, but for the average Joe who is not fast roping out of helicopters in a war zone, they are just fine. I think that is what I'm going to get. Right size, FFP is huge, good amount of scope without being too much, reticle is clear and easy to come on.
 
A

adam_s

Regular Member
If you haven't gotten a handguard yet, I would recommend looking at the ALG Defense EMR rails. They are very well made, inexpensive, and light (13oz for the 15", 11.72oz for the 13" V2 versions). I've also heard reports (but not seen anything first hand), about KeyMod bipod attachments being able to easily be pulled off. Regardless, the EMR rails trump both the BCM and Centurion in terms of cost...which means more money for ammo!
 
A

adam_s

Regular Member
Prices for reference, since my edit window closed.
(All prices are Retail as listed on WeaponOutfitters.com-a P&S sponsor!)
Centurion C4 12": $320
BCM KMR13": $269
ALG EMR M-Lok V2 or V3 13": $155
ALG EMR M-Lok V2 or V3 15": $165
 
Bronson

Bronson

Fury
If the mission requirement is to engage at 600 meters + :

Positive Identification (PID) reigns supreme.

Odds are you are not going to be able to PID and establish hostile acts / hostile intent with 1-4x, 1-8x, or sometimes even 2.5-10x at extended ranges.

As a DM, you are not going to have a dedicated spotter. This means you and you alone are responsible for target detection, target identification, and target engagement. This is a huge responsibility.

An offset RDS should also be a requirement if the mission is to engage from 0-600m+.

If I get the opportunity to go off to war again as a DM - I'll be rolling with a 16" Hodge upper, 3-18x Leopold MK6 3-18x, and an offset Aimpoint T1.
 
KMo1205

KMo1205

Member
adam_s said:
Prices for reference, since my edit window closed.
(All prices are Retail as listed on WeaponOutfitters.com-a P&S sponsor!)
Centurion C4 12": $320
BCM KMR13": $269
ALG EMR M-Lok V2 or V3 13": $155
ALG EMR M-Lok V2 or V3 15": $165
Click to expand...

I'll have to take a look at them. Thanks!
 
KMo1205

KMo1205

Member
Bronson said:
If the mission requirement is to engage at 600 meters + :

Positive Identification (PID) reigns supreme.

Odds are you are not going to be able to PID and establish hostile acts / hostile intent with 1-4x, 1-8x, or sometimes even 2.5-10x at extended ranges.

As a DM, you are not going to have a dedicated spotter. This means you and you alone are responsible for target detection, target identification, and target engagement. This is a huge responsibility.

An offset RDS should also be a requirement if the mission is to engage from 0-600m+.

If I get the opportunity to go off to war again as a DM - I'll be rolling with a 16" Hodge upper, 3-18x Leopold MK6 3-18x, and an offset Aimpoint T1.
Click to expand...

That's a great point. I didn't consider PID importance as I come from the civilian side of things.
 
M

Mikey011

Newbie
Vortex makes good glass, and you can't go wrong with one of them.
Another option is if you are just beginning and not using it as a work gun check out the M-308 by Nikon also. It has all of the controls of a high end scope to learn on and is not expensive about 400 cheaper then the viper when I picked one up a few years ago. It dose have a down fall it's not first plane like the viper is. You can take this saved money and get a high end one later on after you know what you want, and are looking for.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
KevinB

KevinB

Member
I always find it interesting to see other's experiences. I want to be clear that while I disagree with Mic's take on Mag and PID , I respect his take on it.

Several years ago at Jim Smith's for the Army M110K1 User Eval - the PID issue was argued back and forth (me I find I can PID with a 1-8x out to around 800m -- I have above average eyesight), other felt they needed 18x to PID at 800m. As a previous 1-4x Short Dot user I found I was getting 90%+ PID at 500m. My take on the DMR is that one needs to fight primarily as an assaulter/Rifleman - and will conduct overwatch etc as required - thus I accept the lower mag and run the optics as a 1x with dot on, until I need more mag. Others thru their experiences can have equally as valid opinions that are different.
 
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