Breaching shotgun qual course

[Bill Blowers]

If the gun is only used for breaching, it is only loaded with specific breaching ammo, do I need to run a qual course or just provide, and document, training? On the one hand, it's a gun and I show some level of proficiency with all my guns. On the other hand, it's just for breaching, so even if I have to kill someone with it I would think the training would be sufficient without the qual check box. If I bury the Adz of a Halligan in someone's head I certainly don't train or qualify with it in that capacity. Same if I intentionally squash someone with my car.

Thoughts?

 

[DARC1]

Are the munitions lethal?
Do you have to qualify with a weapon at your dept in order to carry it?
Do you have to qualify with a less lethal marked/designated shotgun and the munitions to be authorized to use it?
Is there a possibility of using the breaching shotgun and munitions in a lethal encounter?
Do you have to have specialized training to use the breaching shotgun and munitions properly?
Do officers receive driver training and FTO time?

My answer is "yes" to your question.
You want to set the conditions for success while simultaneously diminishing liability.

A car is designed for transportation and a Halligan is designed as an access tool. Using either a vehicle or Halligan as a weapon is improvising/using it out of it's norm and is situational dependent with some policy thrown in. Moon-roofing a perp with a Halligan, in my opinion, is different than making a shot with a shotgun, regardless of munitions, designated use or configuration. I see it as a civil lawsuit attorney's wet dream if he's clever. He knows he will get a 'failure to train' settlement with ease.

A shotgun is specifically manufactured as a weapon and the breaching munitions are all considered lethal.

Combined with the limitations of the munitions (like effective range, accuracy, etc.), it behooves a department to have a comprehensive initial training, certification and sustainment program that replicates the device's operational environments and all breaching munitions used by the organization to include a lethal encounter at various distances and lighting conditions.

 

[Bill Blowers]

It can't be a failure to train beef if the training is comprehensive, documented and on going? On the car analogy we do indeed teach EVOC and pursuit driving. We also have guys demonstrate proficiency with PIT. They aren't "qualifying". Within all of that there is discussion about using the vehicle as a deadly force tool, intentional ramming. For obvious reasons, we don't practice it. But I got a black box reading of 52MPH when I attempted to center punch a shooting suspects car during a pursuit. ( I missed and hit the rear of his car, and then a rock wall......womp-womp)

Is the fact that training intentional strikes with practical application so much harder than simply putting some holes in paper that makes one more important than the other? Both are deadly force. Or is it the fact that a jury will only see the shotgun and not understand the specificity of it as a door opener that was used in a deadly force capacity, like a moon roofed perp with a Halli?

Or are we the ones that made the jump to "qualifying" with it loaded with breaching rounds since it is a gun and they are lethal IF they are employed in an anti-personnel role?

(I'm stealing moon-roof btw)

 

[DARC1]

Did the rock wall die...? Hope you walked away from that one - that move took some stones... Ok, all joking aside.

I think the frivolous lawsuits against departments and individual officers is out of control. The over reactive back lash by administrations has perpetuated the issue. Justified use of force is only use of force, the tool is arbitrary. In my limited opinion, there are a lot of LEO qualifications and training that are basically "safety" classes that serve the department, not the individual. These organizations have taken the accident off the range and put it on the street with most of the outcome falling on the individual officer. I don't like or agree with any of it, but it is a reality.

I see it (Edit for clarity: comprehensive training with the breaching shotgun) as familiarization training and rainy day insurance to protect the individual officer, the trainer and the tac unit. The officer should already be a capable shooter, or I would assume he wouldn't be on the team. So the training teaches him how to breach first - using the tool for lethal purposes is secondary. I think of it as similar to malfunction drills or alternate firing positions - they don't happen a lot, but they do happen and exposure to a viable technique benefits the individual.

Here's a spit ball for our conversation -
After the officer has mastered the breaching technique(s), shoot a few rounds at different distances (room/hallway) to 'pattern' and know POA vs POI. Next have them shotgun breach a door and when the door opens they have to immediately engage a threat at a realistic distance (based on warrant metrics). Then repeat at night or limited visibility, in a gas mask, using a light, nag's, etc. Add a scenario or two with a no-shoot so they have to verbalize, etc. Have the breachers do it once a year for re-cert/sustainment. Document it all for the rainy day.

You guys run autoloaders correct in full configuration (stock, etc)?
This topic usually leads to a discussion about running husk vs racking. For transparence, I am in the racking camp. I don't see the point of carrying an unloaded weapon. That, and I grew up squirrel/bird hunting with a pump so when I shoot, I rack...

 

[Bill Blowers]

After the officer has mastered the breaching technique(s), shoot a few rounds at different distances (room/hallway) to 'pattern' and know POA vs POI. Next have them shotgun breach a door and when the door opens they have to immediately engage a threat at a realistic distance (based on warrant metrics). Then repeat at night or limited visibility, in a gas mask, using a light, nag's, etc. Add a scenario or two with a no-shoot so they have to verbalize, etc. Have the breachers do it once a year for re-cert/sustainment. Document it all for the rainy day.

I think we are saying the same thing. What you describe is not a qualification course. At least not to me. A Qual course would be something along the lines of "Starting at a low ready, when the target turns engage it with two shots to the body in 3 seconds". Then so on and so forth until the end, then we score it and you pass or fail. It's the same course of Fire with a measured score at the end.

It seems to me you are describing a training regimen that is well documented. I agree on the teach them to run a shotgun first. Then how to breach/breach procedures. Then stuff you described, and finally breach in combination with training hits. Lesson plans and their attendance are the documentation needed for court.

 

[Bill Blowers]

I agree with your last bit too. Particularly in my belief that it is the only long gun I carry, make it hot. Now a dude throwing it in a back scabbard or belt catch? maybe not so much........agree or no?

 

[DARC1]

I think we are saying the same thing. What you describe is not a qualification course. At least not to me. A Qual course would be something along the lines of "Starting at a low ready, when the target turns engage it with two shots to the body in 3 seconds". Then so on and so forth until the end, then we score it and you pass or fail. It's the same course of Fire with a measured score at the end.

It seems to me you are describing a training regimen that is well documented. I agree on the teach them to run a shotgun first. Then how to breach/breach procedures. Then stuff you described, and finally breach in combination with training hits. Lesson plans and their attendance are the documentation needed for court.

Yes, I think we are too.

The initial training qualifies (which basically allows) the individual officer to carry a specialized piece of equipment/weapon and munitions that is dedicated to "destroying" part of a door to create access. There are the safety, technical and operational aspects of this instruction that has to have some sort of measurable success and proficiency.

The second part is to familiarize and demonstrate a level of proficiency so the officer is aware of the potential issue and has some basis of reference for appropriate action, if necessary, as he is attempting to clear the threshold and confronted with an armed threat. A 3' hallway doesn't allow much space to move, the door pops open when he shoots the locks, someone on the other side opens the door as you are preparing and on the door, etc.

Again, it's rainy day stuff. IMHO, I think it applies more to the non-standard configured pump shotguns that are securely worn and are dedicated solely for breaching. If it's the officer's primary long gun and there's already a dept qual course for the shotgun, then I would just have them 'pattern' the munitions at realistic distances and call it a day.

Munitions selection would also have some influence in how I constructed the program; frangible buckshot vs dedicated breaching rounds.

 

[Bill Blowers]

So I hit up my Asst City Attorney since he is the team legal advisor and pretty much all he does is protect us from liability.

His opinion is that a "Qualification Course" is unnecessary. Basically the regimen described above, documented and on-going, would be sufficient. If a dude kills someone with a breaching gun, it is the exception not the norm and was not the intent of the gun. The gun is meant to open/soften fortified doors.

He used the analogy of a door charge hanging and capped in, bad guy opens the door and starts shooting, the breacher should blow him up. The breacher knows it is deadly force, has probably never trained to blow someone up, but the circumstances required him to blow the dude up.

Thought I would pass his opinion along.

 

[Dr. No]

You have a bad ass city attorney. I think mine would shit kittens if I brought up that scenario.

 

[Bill Blowers]

He's pretty good, he has counter sued MF'ers a couple times for malicious prosecution in civil claims and won. He also attends training and comes to callouts, occasionally we let him ride in the bearcat on hits. Cool dude and we like that he is engaged.

 

[Chris Taylor]

Hope y'all buy him hookers and birthday cards. Damn.

 

[Dr. No]

That's like a dream come true. Make sure he gets promoted.

 

[Bill Blowers]

We had a hotel to destroy yesterday, did some breaching round testing, breached exterior and interior doors, covered actions at the breach point/ram fail, and included breaches followed with anti-personnel engagements on targets. Went through 160 breaching rounds and 100 rounds of birdshot. Good day.

 

[Bill Blowers]

did some walk back tests with Royal Arms green caps yesterday with the breachers. 870 with no sights, useless past five yards. Saiga with 12" bbl started to shit after 10 yards. Mossberg 930 with 18" barrel was good to go out to 25 yards, at 30 it was on with windage, but it dropped about 12 inches. Just info to compare with your own data.

 

[Atlas]

May I ask ( as someone new to ballistic breaching) why the birdshot?

 

[Dr. No]

Less risk of injury inside the structure to personnel, but not ideal. Cheap ammo, easy to find. Good to practice with.

 

[Bill Blowers]

Birdshot is for TRAINING ONLY!

 

[Fatboy]

Birdshot is for TRAINING ONLY!

I've used birdshot over seas before, it worked but it wasn't really effective. 00 buck was much better in that regard. And in my opinion, if you run a current qual course for shotguns at your Department, then you should not need any additional qual courses. Unless I'm missing something, a shotgun is a shotgun. The breaching ones I've used have been shorter but were the exact same.

That isn't saying that there shouldn't be training involved- knob vs hinges, team positioning, failed breach procedure, etc though. I just don't see the need for an additional qual course.

 

[Bill Blowers]

We don't have shotguns for anything but breaching.

I know bird and 00 work, so does a 5.56 but I don't recommend it. Especially on the cop side where there are over 40 commercially manufactured rounds tested and designed to be safer for occupants.

Use breaching rounds for missions, bird for training UNLESS you have live role players in training. Then use breaching rounds for those training events. Two cents.

 

[Fatboy]

We don't have shotguns for anything but breaching.

I know bird and 00 work, so does a 5.56 but I don't recommend it. Especially on the cop side where there are over 40 commercially manufactured rounds tested and designed to be safer for occupants.

Use breaching rounds for missions, bird for training UNLESS you have live role players in training. Then use breaching rounds for those training events. Two cents.

All (or most) of our cars have shotguns. Remington 870's, so it's pump action all the way. We could breach with those if needed, but other than me I'm not sure we have many others with shotgun breaching experience. Plenty of ram and haligan experience though. I would love dedicate a few guns to breaching only status though. Make them shorter, single point slings, a light, and breaching rounds.

Most of our live role player stuff involves houses and buildings where we can't really work live breaching. At least not if we want to train there again.