variable optic thoughts for a sbr
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Good topic.
ptrlcop
Established
I have not played with this YET but it is something I want to put together. My frame of reference is the typical LE response where we surround a target house/veh from the 40-60 yard range. Entry work is a secondary to the perimeter role in some ways.
First I think we need to accept that distance and precision are not synonyms. There may be times when you require precision and not be at any great distance. That guy behind cover may not present a very big target.
Next, optics primary job is to help you SEE better. Even as close as 40 yards, magnification can help you see detail or into windows much better than unmagnified. Seeing more= more information= better decision making.
I really think a 12.5 suppressed gun with a LPV optic could be the do all for LE. I may even play with a 2.5-10 and offset dot on a 12.5 suppressed gun but weight may be an issue.
First I think we need to accept that distance and precision are not synonyms. There may be times when you require precision and not be at any great distance. That guy behind cover may not present a very big target.
Next, optics primary job is to help you SEE better. Even as close as 40 yards, magnification can help you see detail or into windows much better than unmagnified. Seeing more= more information= better decision making.
I really think a 12.5 suppressed gun with a LPV optic could be the do all for LE. I may even play with a 2.5-10 and offset dot on a 12.5 suppressed gun but weight may be an issue.
voodoo_man
Established
I've run a 1-8x USO - > http://www.vdmsr.com/2015/06/usoptics-sr8c-1-8x-red-dot-optic-in.html <- which is overkill for an SBR, but a 1-4x is not.
I'd suggest getting something that fits your mission specific configuration for that build, specifically something that can be used an RDS and have the magnification to PID when required. I'd recommend checking out the Leupold VX-R Patrol 1.25-4x -> http://www.vdmsr.com/2013/10/leupold-vx-r-patrol-125-4x20-firedot-on.html <- but there are other 1-4x setups that work very well for less and more depending on what you want the optic and reticle to do.
I'd suggest getting something that fits your mission specific configuration for that build, specifically something that can be used an RDS and have the magnification to PID when required. I'd recommend checking out the Leupold VX-R Patrol 1.25-4x -> http://www.vdmsr.com/2013/10/leupold-vx-r-patrol-125-4x20-firedot-on.html <- but there are other 1-4x setups that work very well for less and more depending on what you want the optic and reticle to do.
Roland has a "article" on said optic in the Professional/Duty page on Facebook, I can't seem to link to it if you search for Roland Razor its like the third post.
Boom! Credit: Roland D.
Ok so I took overall high shooter at Pat Rogers class this weekend.
Who cares.... this post is not about me, 2nd and 3rd place shooters were within 3 shots of me.
Let's talk variable power optics!
I ran the course with the Vortex Razor II 1-6X.
Dudes always goto long range courses (SPR shit) and be all like "variables are the shit".
DUH! You are shooting a long ways off. Magnifying the threat for a stabilized shot is always a good thing.
BUT..... I did not always believe that the low end of the scope could really get after it in the close fight.
My "concerns" about being slower or sloppier with the variable power optic were dispelled as a result of running this course.
I made the decision to run Uncle Pat's class with that scope because I knew that there would be a lot of close up shooting.....FAST.
I set up on the line next to a long time friend and professional SWAT cop who was running an SBR with a vangcomp and 11 inch rail and micro We traded rifles for a while and his gun runs like a raped ape.
So I've got a HARD shooter on the line next to me with a little controllable burner SBR and I've got a 14.5in Hodge Mod 1 with a surefire war comp.
The conditions were set for me to really have to bring my A game with this optic and rifle in order to keep up on these drills.
Bottom line is that if I was any slower shooting that 1-6 than I would be able to shoot with an RDS, it was negligible.
2nd, 3rd, and 4th shooters all had micro T's.
So what am I saying? If you are wanting to increase the capability of your set up on the high end but are scared of being slow on the low end, as long as you choose the right glass and train with it, you will be fine.
I zero'd on 6X and shot the entire course with the rifle on 1X with the red dot on the highest setting.
We had high humidity and rain for two days and I had no issues getting a sight picture.
If you have a 14.5 or 16 and you DON'T have a variable on it, I really think you are cheating yourself on the upper end of that guns performance at distance...... don't let the fear of 99% of your shooting being the close fight, prevent you from having an amazballs capability for that one time that you need it!
EDITED: 2 ALIBIS
1. The scope is powered by a 2032 flat cell battery. So boo!!!!!!(for a patrol carbine) you can't just leave it on like you can with SOME RDS.
2. Run and gun peeps...... the Vortex is a bear to turn the variable knob(lots of mechanical resistance to move the dial). You better get an aftermarket lever of you THINK you are ninja enough to run around and dial magnification up and down from target to target.
Ok so I took overall high shooter at Pat Rogers class this weekend.
Who cares.... this post is not about me, 2nd and 3rd place shooters were within 3 shots of me.
Let's talk variable power optics!
I ran the course with the Vortex Razor II 1-6X.
Dudes always goto long range courses (SPR shit) and be all like "variables are the shit".
DUH! You are shooting a long ways off. Magnifying the threat for a stabilized shot is always a good thing.
BUT..... I did not always believe that the low end of the scope could really get after it in the close fight.
My "concerns" about being slower or sloppier with the variable power optic were dispelled as a result of running this course.
I made the decision to run Uncle Pat's class with that scope because I knew that there would be a lot of close up shooting.....FAST.
I set up on the line next to a long time friend and professional SWAT cop who was running an SBR with a vangcomp and 11 inch rail and micro We traded rifles for a while and his gun runs like a raped ape.
So I've got a HARD shooter on the line next to me with a little controllable burner SBR and I've got a 14.5in Hodge Mod 1 with a surefire war comp.
The conditions were set for me to really have to bring my A game with this optic and rifle in order to keep up on these drills.
Bottom line is that if I was any slower shooting that 1-6 than I would be able to shoot with an RDS, it was negligible.
2nd, 3rd, and 4th shooters all had micro T's.
So what am I saying? If you are wanting to increase the capability of your set up on the high end but are scared of being slow on the low end, as long as you choose the right glass and train with it, you will be fine.
I zero'd on 6X and shot the entire course with the rifle on 1X with the red dot on the highest setting.
We had high humidity and rain for two days and I had no issues getting a sight picture.
If you have a 14.5 or 16 and you DON'T have a variable on it, I really think you are cheating yourself on the upper end of that guns performance at distance...... don't let the fear of 99% of your shooting being the close fight, prevent you from having an amazballs capability for that one time that you need it!
EDITED: 2 ALIBIS
1. The scope is powered by a 2032 flat cell battery. So boo!!!!!!(for a patrol carbine) you can't just leave it on like you can with SOME RDS.
2. Run and gun peeps...... the Vortex is a bear to turn the variable knob(lots of mechanical resistance to move the dial). You better get an aftermarket lever of you THINK you are ninja enough to run around and dial magnification up and down from target to target.
Dr. No
Regular Member
My work stick - 12.5" + can is even to a 14.5"'s flash suppressor.
I have run the S&B Short Dot as a duty optic for going on 10 years. It excels in clarity on target, battery life, and reliability. It has withstood tens of thousands of rounds, vibrating in a car rack, beaten on missions and training, and being thrown around for demo on the range. The only downside I could ever point out is that it is expensive and most of all, heavy.
I use mine in an assaulter role. For LE, 300y is about the distance I could positively ID a threat and make a legal decision to engage. Not uncommon to see 200y distances in school hallways. At that distance, holdover is negligible and I'm not going to be able to take a precision shot. My drop is about 12-18", so I just hold on the head and I'm GTG. From 0-300 I'm using holds and I'm not trying to hit a 6" plate.
I have run a variable power for the last 10 years in training, patrol settings, competition, and SWAT on entries. To me there is zero difference as far as speed goes between the two. Variables give you the added functionality of being able to magnify, at the cost of weight and price. Eye relief is easier using a dot when in awkward positions or when employing a gas mask, but it is not impossible to employ a variable in those situations either. Good glass selection helps with this. If your glass has a very small eye box, it will suck to get twisted around and be able to see. The Z6, Vortex, S&B, etc all have very generous eye boxes and I have had no issues.
PHaxelrod
Newbie
I have gone back and forth between red dots, red dots w/ magnifiers, and variable optics on my SBR.
I use a 12.5" barrel for preference, and my current BCM barrel is capable of 1.5 MOA or so on any given day with good ammunition. This can easily stretch its legs to 400m if I needed it to (farther if it isn't too windy), so a low powered, variable optic makes a certain amount of sense. My favorite for this task is the Leupold Mark6 1-6x20mm. I have used this scope on 10.5", 12.5", 14.5", and (currently on) 18" ARs in 5.56 and SCAR-17 in .308, and it is frankly the perfect optic for what and how I shoot, pretty much regardless of platform. I've used it to hit steel at 1050yds on my SCAR.
Glass is fantastic. With the TMR reticle, it isn't beholden to one cartridge or barrel length, provided you do your homework and learn your hold overs. Caliber-specific BDC reticles are available, if you prefer them. It is lighter than even many 1-4x optics on the market and has very positive adjustments should you need to dial. The downside is that the reticle illumination is about 75% as bright as I would like it to be. Daylight visible, yes, but not super bright if there is, say, snow on the ground reflecting a ton of sunlight. This is something they really need to address.
TL/DR: The Mk6 fits the bill for me if I ever want magnification on my 12.5" gun. I would recommend it to anyone and I will be buying another.
I use a 12.5" barrel for preference, and my current BCM barrel is capable of 1.5 MOA or so on any given day with good ammunition. This can easily stretch its legs to 400m if I needed it to (farther if it isn't too windy), so a low powered, variable optic makes a certain amount of sense. My favorite for this task is the Leupold Mark6 1-6x20mm. I have used this scope on 10.5", 12.5", 14.5", and (currently on) 18" ARs in 5.56 and SCAR-17 in .308, and it is frankly the perfect optic for what and how I shoot, pretty much regardless of platform. I've used it to hit steel at 1050yds on my SCAR.
Glass is fantastic. With the TMR reticle, it isn't beholden to one cartridge or barrel length, provided you do your homework and learn your hold overs. Caliber-specific BDC reticles are available, if you prefer them. It is lighter than even many 1-4x optics on the market and has very positive adjustments should you need to dial. The downside is that the reticle illumination is about 75% as bright as I would like it to be. Daylight visible, yes, but not super bright if there is, say, snow on the ground reflecting a ton of sunlight. This is something they really need to address.
TL/DR: The Mk6 fits the bill for me if I ever want magnification on my 12.5" gun. I would recommend it to anyone and I will be buying another.