Twin and Quad Loading

[Bill Blowers]

What place, if any, do these loading techniques have in the tactical arena. The only 12 gauge we use is for ballistic breaching, most of that done with Saiga's. However we do have a few mod'd Benelli and 930's that could be used.

Any applicability or way too cool to bother with for reloading post breach? To be clear, if I run six on the hinges, I step off so mechanical guys can do work and I am covered by dudes wit rifles. Typically no need to cover myself as others are doing that for me.

Not just the technique, but using the shell holders as well.

 

[shooters101]

I would not think they would lean to a true pratical/tactical use as the shells are easily dislodged if bumped.

 

[Bronson]

Shell holders will not hold up to tactical use. They will dislodge ammunition and even break.

I experimented with twin loading, but found the juice was not the squeeze on both the Mossberg M500 and KSG-12.

Reason being - with the competition shell holders they are oriented directly for twin loading so it's plug and play. Reloading from my tactical pouches and shotgun shell cards means I have to draw two, orient them in the correct manner, then load them. It's not conducive to reloading / efficiency of movement, especially with gloves on.

I discarded it is as not viable after a single day's practice. Maybe I'd get more proficient with more time and repetitions, but it just wasn't working for me initially and I dropped it.

 

[Bill Blowers]

What shell holder were/are you guys using or talking about?

Absent the 3 gun shell holders, I agree it's not affective.

 

[Bronson]

I've witnessed L2 Solutions and Ram Superior Firearms Solutions shotshell caddies fail on use.

Issues ranged from vehicle work and armor causing shot shells to be dislodged, to full on caddie breakage and shearing off when encountering hard resistance (walls, doors, barriers). NO GO.

I'm gonna experiment again with vertical orientation shot shell cards and see if I can come up with something more viable. I'm thinking tipping a shell up a bit from the bottom, doing the same to one next to it and drawing it, then twin loading may work. Not as efficient as I would like though, lack of economy of movement.

 

[Bill Blowers]

I've always thrown one of these on the exposed part of the riggers belt at the front of my battle belt as a means to carry a few extra in a handy location. No issues on MY missions with durability and/or loss of shells.


So this setup looks very similar for security of shells and allows you to set up for grabbing twins or quads. I might buy one just to give a whirl, and I'm not really looking for 3 gun speed, just speedier than single loads. I think it could be modified for a quick MOLLE mount? If nothing else I can put packs of lifesavers in it to give the boys when they do something good.

 

[shooters101]

Sorry I misunderstood what kind of loading you were asking about. Fast forward to the .30 sec mark of this vid and this was the kind of loading I thought you were talking about.

 

[Bill Blowers]

Yep that's it, you can do it with the bottom shell caddy I posted but the shells are more secure than the true twin/quad loading "clips".

 

[ASH556]

I don't see where they have any place. You might could make a case for twins, but I think the fumble factor on quads is pretty high (gloves, movement, etc). Conversely, the traditional weak hand, under the gun load lets you keep your situation awareness better instead of watching the ejection port down at waist level and you could potentially stop mid-load, shoot something while cupping 2 or 3 shells in your support hand, and then resume reloading. That's not happening when you have the gun flipped upside down or over your shoulder. With a little practice, you can be pretty quick on the weak hand load as well. Heck, I've only practiced it twice and I can load 4 in 3.5 seconds weak hand.

 

[Bill Blowers]

I have two styles enroute to try. A gunner solutions EZ8 pictured above and clip style. I got two nights in a hotel this week to practice/test out location and then teachings ten hour training day on March 12 for my team. I should be able to get a better feel for it by then.

 

[Bill Blowers]

So with little effort I am easily loading twins out of the EZ8 carrier. It came with MOLLE mounts so it fits just about anywhere. We are doing breaching training this Thursday and I'll see how it holds up. I have used both the muzzle down / loading port up style and the stock on shoulder / loading port outboard style. The former may be best in and around team mates so I'm not flagging them, the latter when I need to keep head and eyes up and the terrain/team will afford it.

 

[Bill Blowers]

I think this shit is a winner. The EZ8 caddy is plenty secure and it sits tight enough to the belt that I don't think it will create a snag hazard. I like the Saiga, but mag changes suck with the big mags on a closed bolt. They also aren't very easy to just "plus up" if you only need to add a few. Carrying the mags is also problematic.

I was easily able to top off four rounds in my 930 before a competent Saiga guy could switch mags. The 930 takes me down to 8 rounds on board instead of ten, but the ease of refilling the tube AND carrying a bunch of spare ammo makes it a winner. I'm sticking to two at a time for now since I still don't feel comfortable with quads to try on a mission. But I think I'll get there.

 

[AndersonAUB]

That 930 may be the way to go. I also liked the 4 round shell caddy from surefire. With little shotgun experience and not very big hands, i was able to manage 4 rounds pretty efficiently today. I will need to practice a bit on the boom stick. I have a personal 870 and 500 so manipulations on both platforms will be worked into my weekend dry fire/cleaning time.

I did not get a chance to play with the EZ8 today. I will mess with it a bit next month.

 

[Bill Blowers]

I can put the gun on safe and load 4 rounds in less than 3 seconds. I can do this hard muzzle down like the video if teammates are close by, or I can keep the muzzle horizontal if not.

I dont know Bronson, you may want to revisit this with one of the EZ8's.

 

[Bronson]

My main issue is I don't foresee any of them surviving forceful impact / pressure exerted on them for the following actions:

1) Traversing Obstacles
2) Climbing mud walls / rocks
3) Gunner on vehicles

Also interfere with rucksack hip belts.

I'm gonna twin load out of an Esstac shotgun card attached to the stock and see how that rolls though, need to order some of them and 12 gauge dummy rounds as is.

 

[Bill Blowers]

You might be right on the first two but I had occasion to get in the turret yesterday on a callout and had no problems. This was a bearcat so I'm not sure if your turrets are smaller. I have had the EZ8 on my belt for five callouts now with no issue, but I haven't had to climb anything.

How you gonna do it out of a card? Pull two, adjust in hand and then load them?

 

[Bronson]

We're going over a lot rougher terrain and faster (plus usually with far less proficient drivers ) than LE typically - I've lost count how many times I've been thrown around in the turret and impacting it. Cracked a kydex belt mag doing before doing that.

I was thinking pull one with specific grip, pull two that dovetails into that specific grip but for two (think syringe) then load.

I'll snap some photos tomorrow with what I end up with and initial thoughts on it.

 

[Bill Blowers]

Good point on the terrain differences, looking forward to the pics.

 

[Darth Tater]

@Bill Blowers Is the EZ-28 still working out? I quad load from the competition shooting side of things, but at the moment I carry work shotshells on the side saddle, shotgun cards, and occasionally a 4 rd stripper...simply because my competition caddies aren't designed to retain shells in my work environment.

Side note: if you think loadings twins or quads is easy with a stock gun, you should see how well it works when you open up the loading port a bit. That's the other half of the shotgun loading equation...but likely frowned upon for department guns.

 

[Bill Blowers]

Been using the EZ8 for over a year now for training and missions. It has been good to go, I lost a single shell on one mission. Not sure how it popped out, but this was a typical shit house with debris and crap everywhere. If you get it with the MOLLE clips it is pretty easy to pop it off and on, although I never take it off even when I'm not carrying a shotgun.

All the department guns have had the ports opened up, I do what I want.