What are the differences?
On Facebook some Military advice was given for a LE application.
On Facebook some Military advice was given for a LE application.
Snipers - Police versus Military
- Thread starter Matt Landfair
- Start date
ptrlcop
Established
Direct from our SOP(LE)
D.Sniper: A professional sniper is a specially selected, trained, and equipped team member, who makes use of his/her skills, training and equipment to gain a position of advantage, and provide real time information to his tactical team, to aid them in planning and executing a peaceful resolution to a critical incident. As a secondary function, the sniper provides lethal cover and protection to team members, innocent civilians, and hostages. If necessary the sniper can direct precision fire against designated authorized targets
D.Sniper: A professional sniper is a specially selected, trained, and equipped team member, who makes use of his/her skills, training and equipment to gain a position of advantage, and provide real time information to his tactical team, to aid them in planning and executing a peaceful resolution to a critical incident. As a secondary function, the sniper provides lethal cover and protection to team members, innocent civilians, and hostages. If necessary the sniper can direct precision fire against designated authorized targets
JekPokins
Amateur
^^^ Our SOP is very similar.
We are typically very involved with working up and presenting pre-raid packets. We then deploy in advance of warrant services/ raids to provide real time Intel. Intel is almost always our primary mission. Our secondary mission is the ability to provide precision fire. We occasionally get the call to put GPS trackers on things, and we get called for plain surveillance when there is no other way to do it.
Generally speaking 2+ years of entry are required to receive consideration for the M\O (marksman observer) unit. All team leaders are trained as MO's regardless of whether or not they serve time in the MO unit, so that they are aware of what we can or can't do.
We are typically very involved with working up and presenting pre-raid packets. We then deploy in advance of warrant services/ raids to provide real time Intel. Intel is almost always our primary mission. Our secondary mission is the ability to provide precision fire. We occasionally get the call to put GPS trackers on things, and we get called for plain surveillance when there is no other way to do it.
Generally speaking 2+ years of entry are required to receive consideration for the M\O (marksman observer) unit. All team leaders are trained as MO's regardless of whether or not they serve time in the MO unit, so that they are aware of what we can or can't do.
ptrlcop
Established
Anybody who quotes "average sniper engagements" without referencing the ASA Sniper Utilization Report is wrong. Anybody who deploys as or supervises snipers who has not read the ASA report is wrong. I wont comment on the .Mil side of things.
Clearly LE snipers deploy in closer situations than Mil guys. This does not reduce the need for precision or magnification. When I first deploy on a call out I am immediately collecting information on hinges, locks, windows, gas lines, and other building characteristics. These are small details that can be hard to distinguish even at 50yds. I am also looking for signs of children or animals that might alter the tactical plan. I once spotted a kid's shoe through a window that altered the plan until we could confirm that no children were inside. I could not have seen that under 8x. I have spent a fair amount of time trying to stare between the gaps in some blinds for detail/signs of movement, not gonna do that with an acog.
When I first started I was given a Nightforce 5.2-22 that I hated because I could not even see a whole window at low power from our typical across the street distance of 40-60yds. The 22x was great on the range for super tight stuff that almost equated to trick shots. I have settled on a Nightforce 2.5-10X42 because the 2.5 is extremely useful for general observation and I can quickly zoom to 10x for checking out details. I supplement the scope with a razor 11-33 spotter, but I have yet to use it on an actual callout. On the range I sometimes wish for a little more magnification when we are shooting super tight stuff but the 3-15 is almost a pound heavier and not worth the trade off for me. I also have a T1 on a 45degree larue mount. This setup is the tits for our normal callouts, commercial structures and active shooter scenarios but I find it too heavy(read slow) and cumbersome for my comfort level operating in residential structures. It would probably be fine in a 5.56 system, just not on a .308.
So what sort of precision is needed? I think that you need to be able to have a hard understanding of what shots you can guarantee. For me, kneeling sling supported hostage shots to 25yds, head shots to 50; prone hostage shots to 150, head shots to 225ish (when I say guarantee I mean you would be willing to send it past your kid). My goal is to get where I can pass the Snipercraft advanced qualification from a kneeling, sling supported position. For me I think the kneeling, sling supported position is very similar to strong hand only with a pistol in that it makes you better at all the other shooting because of its magnification of fundamental errors.
Clearly LE snipers deploy in closer situations than Mil guys. This does not reduce the need for precision or magnification. When I first deploy on a call out I am immediately collecting information on hinges, locks, windows, gas lines, and other building characteristics. These are small details that can be hard to distinguish even at 50yds. I am also looking for signs of children or animals that might alter the tactical plan. I once spotted a kid's shoe through a window that altered the plan until we could confirm that no children were inside. I could not have seen that under 8x. I have spent a fair amount of time trying to stare between the gaps in some blinds for detail/signs of movement, not gonna do that with an acog.
When I first started I was given a Nightforce 5.2-22 that I hated because I could not even see a whole window at low power from our typical across the street distance of 40-60yds. The 22x was great on the range for super tight stuff that almost equated to trick shots. I have settled on a Nightforce 2.5-10X42 because the 2.5 is extremely useful for general observation and I can quickly zoom to 10x for checking out details. I supplement the scope with a razor 11-33 spotter, but I have yet to use it on an actual callout. On the range I sometimes wish for a little more magnification when we are shooting super tight stuff but the 3-15 is almost a pound heavier and not worth the trade off for me. I also have a T1 on a 45degree larue mount. This setup is the tits for our normal callouts, commercial structures and active shooter scenarios but I find it too heavy(read slow) and cumbersome for my comfort level operating in residential structures. It would probably be fine in a 5.56 system, just not on a .308.
So what sort of precision is needed? I think that you need to be able to have a hard understanding of what shots you can guarantee. For me, kneeling sling supported hostage shots to 25yds, head shots to 50; prone hostage shots to 150, head shots to 225ish (when I say guarantee I mean you would be willing to send it past your kid). My goal is to get where I can pass the Snipercraft advanced qualification from a kneeling, sling supported position. For me I think the kneeling, sling supported position is very similar to strong hand only with a pistol in that it makes you better at all the other shooting because of its magnification of fundamental errors.
I can't comment much on the LE side of the house, but a military sniper is more then just a precision shooter; he is an autonomous or nearly autonomous reconnaissance element. He acts as a forward observer for indirect fire or CAS (something I certainly hope our LE brethren will never need to do). He also has to be a highly proficent soldier before he even sets foot down the path to be a sniper.
When comparing LE and mil snipers, we often look simply at the shooting skills involved, but how many LE will need to plan a mission that involves infil by air, route planning of a 15K movement, maintenance of comms, establishing a hide site, the list goes on and on. Also, thankfully, the LE sniper generally doesn't need to worry about being overrun and killed if compromised. The military sniper knows that every mission can end up that way.
When comparing LE and mil snipers, we often look simply at the shooting skills involved, but how many LE will need to plan a mission that involves infil by air, route planning of a 15K movement, maintenance of comms, establishing a hide site, the list goes on and on. Also, thankfully, the LE sniper generally doesn't need to worry about being overrun and killed if compromised. The military sniper knows that every mission can end up that way.
Richard Boucher
Newbie
Lets not get into comparing cock size here. A simple question was asked. Differences are not many. The basic tenants of both the LE and Mil sniper is that of observing and reporting what was observed until which time a shot must be made. The rest is mission dictated and varies with the mission. Rick, I have worked with LEO snipers that have yes planned air insertion, and long over land movements. I have also worked with some Mil snipers that have never done that.
I wasn't implying anything by my statement, it was simply an answer to the proposed question. While yes, there are always exceptions to any rule, what I posted is accurate both by general employment and by doctrine.
I think maybe some of my post may have been misinterpreted as me talking down about my LE sniper brothers, so I will clarify. When I said what I did about LE thankfully not calling in CAS or being overrun, I meant that as in "thank God we don't have conditions stateside where the situation has ever been that bad".
I don't doubt the dedication or skill of LE snipers, or that they could do anything mil snipers do with the same training. What I am saying is that just as the individual police officer and individual soldier have different jobs, so do the respective snipers.
I don't doubt the dedication or skill of LE snipers, or that they could do anything mil snipers do with the same training. What I am saying is that just as the individual police officer and individual soldier have different jobs, so do the respective snipers.
I interpreted Rick's comment as he intended. No foul
KUTF
Regular Member
Although there are many skills and responsibilities that overlap, I see the three most obvious differences as:
1) Their respective operating environments;
2) Common engagement distances;
3) Military ROE vs. LE use of force laws/policies.
I think the other big difference is regarding doctrine and training. Besides the differences and rivalry between various .mil service branches, and GPF/SOF sniper courses, it seems that military snipers are trained to a common standard, for lack of better. These sniper schools are weeks-long in duration, cover most operational considerations and are very demanding to say the least.
Compare and contrast that with LE sniper training. There is no standardized doctrine or POI, and many states don't even require any type of training before being deployed in that role. LE sniper schools - commonly only 50hrs-to-160hrs in length - are oftentimes just "shooting schools." The better ones are able to cram-in an introduction to all the various things you need to get better at once you leave (observing and reporting, movers, intermediate barriers, hide construction). If a LE sniper school doesn't include use-of-force/deadly force legal considerations in the POI, that is a glaring oversight and not an uncommon error when someone with no LE experience jumps into that instructor pool.
Although cops have been forced to use their newfound sniper skills soon after getting a diploma, I would be hard pressed to say that most LE snipers are "ready" (barring prior experience) for a real-world callout just because they went to a weeklong, basic sniper school. Just as we don't unleash a rookie police officer fresh from the academy onto the unsuspecting public without a FTO program, my team's snipers undergo a lengthy OJT process, in additional to monthly inservice training to fully prepare them to do the job... until then, they're just an armed "observer", no pun intended and MUST be paired-up with an experienced sniper. We also don't allow "new" guys to become snipers, instead requiring several years of service on SWAT before you can make the jump. That ensures that the guys behind the gun understand what's going-on "inside the house" and can factor that knowledge into their decision-making process.
I wish every cop sniper was a member of The American Sniper Association and adhered to accepted best-practices regarding this specialty field, but that just isn't the case.
I think much of your first paragraph actually applies, when placed into a LE context. In my experience LE snipers - or whatever "nice"/PC word an agency gives them - are oftentimes separated from the main element, responsible for their own deployment/movement, equipment, security and sustainment (they never deliver pizza or hamburgers to us - sniff, sniff). Unless they are forced to live under a "Green Light" policy (ie: only fire when specifically authorized to do so by a command element - which is pure negligence IMHO) police snipers can have a lot of autonomy and flexibility to fit into a situation as best as they can. I rarely have to get "permission" to do something I want to do in order to support my team.
That said, all of the listed differences still apply...
Regardless of how a SOP dances around the issue, the primary responsibility of a LE sniper is to Protect the Team (Public). That is most oftentimes done by providing timely and vital intel to the rest of the team. There is also the rare - but ever-present - possibility that an officer may need to use deadly force against a dangerous suspect in order to prevent them from causing the death or serious physical injury of an officer, hostage or bystander.
Of course many things in your second paragraph don't cross-over between the two worlds. Now I do know of LE snipers that have infiltrated by helicopter, conducted lengthy foot movements, had to rely on spotty comms (that's pretty common, actually!), etc, etc - but some things that may be common for .mil snipers are very UN-common or never-gonna-happen for most of law enforcement.
There are skill-sets and operational considerations that just don't translate in either direction - or very rarely so. Cops usually deal with a very compressed surveillance/engagement area, generally "control" the area where they are handling a callout or warrant (although working in "not cop friendly" places is very common as well) and sustainment, relief-in-place and medical evacuation can usually occur in minutes or hours on the police side of things.
Well said, well spoken.
I have trained "with" .mil snipers during my active-duty days (I was never a military sniper, just to be clear) and as a LE officer. I have also provided training "to" .mil snipers when they wanted to develop skills more commonly associated with LE snipers. Either way, I have always been impressed with the knowledge, stamina, dedication and skill of military snipers. When I've shared a range with them, experienced .mil snipers always excelled at making accurate wind-calls and smacking first-round hits on long range targets.
Good discussion and I wish good hunting and a safe return home to our deployed military snipers.
Stay Safe everyone….
1) Their respective operating environments;
2) Common engagement distances;
3) Military ROE vs. LE use of force laws/policies.
I think the other big difference is regarding doctrine and training. Besides the differences and rivalry between various .mil service branches, and GPF/SOF sniper courses, it seems that military snipers are trained to a common standard, for lack of better. These sniper schools are weeks-long in duration, cover most operational considerations and are very demanding to say the least.
Compare and contrast that with LE sniper training. There is no standardized doctrine or POI, and many states don't even require any type of training before being deployed in that role. LE sniper schools - commonly only 50hrs-to-160hrs in length - are oftentimes just "shooting schools." The better ones are able to cram-in an introduction to all the various things you need to get better at once you leave (observing and reporting, movers, intermediate barriers, hide construction). If a LE sniper school doesn't include use-of-force/deadly force legal considerations in the POI, that is a glaring oversight and not an uncommon error when someone with no LE experience jumps into that instructor pool.
Although cops have been forced to use their newfound sniper skills soon after getting a diploma, I would be hard pressed to say that most LE snipers are "ready" (barring prior experience) for a real-world callout just because they went to a weeklong, basic sniper school. Just as we don't unleash a rookie police officer fresh from the academy onto the unsuspecting public without a FTO program, my team's snipers undergo a lengthy OJT process, in additional to monthly inservice training to fully prepare them to do the job... until then, they're just an armed "observer", no pun intended and MUST be paired-up with an experienced sniper. We also don't allow "new" guys to become snipers, instead requiring several years of service on SWAT before you can make the jump. That ensures that the guys behind the gun understand what's going-on "inside the house" and can factor that knowledge into their decision-making process.
I wish every cop sniper was a member of The American Sniper Association and adhered to accepted best-practices regarding this specialty field, but that just isn't the case.
I think much of your first paragraph actually applies, when placed into a LE context. In my experience LE snipers - or whatever "nice"/PC word an agency gives them - are oftentimes separated from the main element, responsible for their own deployment/movement, equipment, security and sustainment (they never deliver pizza or hamburgers to us - sniff, sniff). Unless they are forced to live under a "Green Light" policy (ie: only fire when specifically authorized to do so by a command element - which is pure negligence IMHO) police snipers can have a lot of autonomy and flexibility to fit into a situation as best as they can. I rarely have to get "permission" to do something I want to do in order to support my team.
That said, all of the listed differences still apply...
Regardless of how a SOP dances around the issue, the primary responsibility of a LE sniper is to Protect the Team (Public). That is most oftentimes done by providing timely and vital intel to the rest of the team. There is also the rare - but ever-present - possibility that an officer may need to use deadly force against a dangerous suspect in order to prevent them from causing the death or serious physical injury of an officer, hostage or bystander.
Of course many things in your second paragraph don't cross-over between the two worlds. Now I do know of LE snipers that have infiltrated by helicopter, conducted lengthy foot movements, had to rely on spotty comms (that's pretty common, actually!), etc, etc - but some things that may be common for .mil snipers are very UN-common or never-gonna-happen for most of law enforcement.
There are skill-sets and operational considerations that just don't translate in either direction - or very rarely so. Cops usually deal with a very compressed surveillance/engagement area, generally "control" the area where they are handling a callout or warrant (although working in "not cop friendly" places is very common as well) and sustainment, relief-in-place and medical evacuation can usually occur in minutes or hours on the police side of things.
Well said, well spoken.
I have trained "with" .mil snipers during my active-duty days (I was never a military sniper, just to be clear) and as a LE officer. I have also provided training "to" .mil snipers when they wanted to develop skills more commonly associated with LE snipers. Either way, I have always been impressed with the knowledge, stamina, dedication and skill of military snipers. When I've shared a range with them, experienced .mil snipers always excelled at making accurate wind-calls and smacking first-round hits on long range targets.
Good discussion and I wish good hunting and a safe return home to our deployed military snipers.
Stay Safe everyone….