Skill set attributed to Military or LEO experience

[AsianJedi]

I heard a lot of former military and LEO say that they learned more about shooting after they got out of the service/LE.

Just curious if this is consistent with those here on the boards.

To keep it simple just attribute a % number of your current skill set to your time in the military/LE. I know skill set is a nebulous term, but I am sure we can manage.

 

[MATTB]

I would say about 20%.

 

[Hizzie]

Just shooting? Probably 60% after I left LE.

 

[HR532]

Long story short, roughly 95% of my shooting skill was gained from training outside of the military.

(Come from a light infantry background)

I could write a 10 page paper on improving small arms training in Big Army.

 

[DCtheGB]

Pure shooting skill, 90% outside of the Army.

My dad was a firearms instructor and an all around great shooter. A lot of my skills were developed during my youth, most of what the Army teaches just reinforced the fundamentals. However, through my military experience, I've gleaned a lot in terms of tactics (CQB, SUT), and techniques (long range shooting, weapons manipulation) which I would not necessarily get outside of the Army.


@DCtheGB

 

[karmapolice]

I have done majority of my firearms training on my own time and dime. However I've gotten some good stuff through work or at work.

 

[regdudedrtyjob]

I think what I was exposed to in basic was a great intro to known distance shooting, shooting positions, sight picture/sight alignment, basics of marksmanship, etc. It was never taken beyond that however. LE I think was the same way with basic pistol manipulation, draw stroke, trigger control, etc. But again, through my own efforts in dry fire, research, etc, I am responsible for the level of skill I have today. I think this is a symptom that most other guys on here will see too. If you care about something enough to work on it, hone it, tear it down, build it back up, obsess over it, you probably won't ever get where you are truly happy with your performance, but you will be ahead of your peers who only maintain the standard, not push it.

 

[JekPokins]

I rarely shot handguns at all before getting into LE. LE training made me decently proficient at using a handgun and perhaps fooled me into even thinking I was good.
But not until I started spending my own time and money on training and competing did I realize that I completely sucked in the big picture.
I'd contribute 25% of my shooting skill to LE. Knowing what I know now that I'm an instructor in my agency, I strive to give much more than that baseline to those who care to learn and get better.

 

[MRBautista]

Military - I would say about 35%, and being a National Guardsman, I am very sure that is outside the norm.
I have had the privilege to have attended Small Arms Master Gunner Course, Army Marksmanship Unit's CQM and SDM courses, trained with Fox Troop, SEAL Team 5, and a specialty course held at Blackwater, I mean Xe, I mean Academi, I mean US Training Center, or whatever they are calling it this week. I hope to attend the AMU Master Marksman Course. I also shoot for the Idaho Military Marksmanship Team, competed at Winston P. Wilson in 2013 and will be Captaining the Idaho team at WPW this year.

Civvy employment side (Contract Federal Security Police Officer) - 50%, I am a DOE Certified Firearms Instructor as well as a DOE Advanced Weapons Instructor. I was able to hire John Chapman (Chappy) of LMS Defense to teach an Advanced Instructor Development course for all our FI's, as well as I have trained at GTI in Barnwell, SC with some former SFAUC instructors and current USSOCOM operators.

I would say the rest comes from USPSA and IDPA experience.

 

[Presscheck Consulting]

95% of my skillset was learned and honed by the military

 

[Pat Tarrant]

Maybe 5% in the military. I'm in a non-compete MOS though. Shot M16s and M9s pretty much only for qualifications. I'd already shot Beretta 92s a bit in the police academy (after graduating the positions disappeared so I joined the Navy Reserves). Since then I've taken some very good classes on my own where I learned way more in less time.

 

[MattJames]

It really varies... the most I learned about shooting in the military was at USASS. The rest I paid for out of my own pocket and have built over the years of trial/error/practice and talking/working with like minded individuals

What unit your with is going to make a huge difference on how much emphasis they put on shooting. This doesn't even apply to Army/Marine grunt units unilaterally. Some are excellent put a lot of forward lean on firearms training. Most... not so much. A case of "good enough's" is pretty rampant in a lot of our professional circles unfortunately. A lot of gun owners, but usually a very small cluster of actual shooters.

I've learned more about pistol shooting from LE guys I know then anything. I qualed with an M9 all of once in 7.5 years in Active Duty.

Hell, I'm frankly disappointed with the shooting acumen I find in my current job... the quals are pretty pathetic but so is our available range time.

 

[Mick-boy]

I've definitely learned more about running guns since I got out. If I was feeling generous I might credit the Marine Corps with

As an 0311 (2001-2005) I thought I had a pretty good handle on gun fighting and being a rifleman. I did ok when I went to the vetting for TC and was middle of the pack on my first team in Basra. But as a young, non-SOF guy I wanted to be a lot better than "ok". I took my first carbine class (EAG) in '06 and followed it up immediately with a pistol class with Vickers. My understanding of "running a rifle" and "accuracy" with a pistol were challenged.

The more I'm exposed to the less impressed I am with what I know.

 

[Bronson]

I'm going to take this in a different direction.

A common failure I see in GPF military personnel is lack of being proactive. (Mick-boy is my favorite story of a dude being proactive.)

Example Given - I wanted to specialize in a certain area of breaching. There is US Army courseworks not on ATRRS devoted to that area. My Command would not grant me TDY or Permissive leave to attend them. I used personal leave days to attend it. (It helped that they only required the name of your Supervisor and not their signature, but I would have forged that with zero fucks given.) End Result - increased proficiency that got put to use in OEF.

How many Soldiers seek out training of their own or their element's accord within the .mil? How many linked up with EOD to learn demo and CIED? How many link up with Medics for Self-Aid / Buddy Aid? How many link up with pilots & crew chiefs for CAS / AWT / SWT best practices?

During their off time how many people hunt? Hike / land nav? Shoot in competitions or make their own? Have pursuits that aid in their job? Have airsoft weapons for manipulation & marksmanship sustainment?

More importantly - how many people in leadership positions are cultivating that mindset?

Far too many soldiers just don't know how or care enough to really Soldier.

 

[borebrush]

Leadership Traits... The salient one to this topic being "to know yourself and seek self -improvement".

 

[ROMPER]

Also come from a hunting/shooting background. Have been very lucky in my law enforcement career to who I was assigned to be trained by, so I learned quite a bit on the pistol and rifle from exceptional local LEO instructors.
My eyes were opened quite a bit when attending my first advanced course....on my own time/dime. Sometimes, getting out there in the world is a hard pill to swallow, learning how much you really don't know can be hard on some folks' ego.
For those really willing to commit and learn from what is outside of their world it can be incredible.
As far as pistol marksmanship, I will have to say that I probably got the most from Vickers, I still incorporate his drills when working with students. As far as weapon handling (hate to say this) but learned a significant amount from Costa, the rest from Dave Harrington and lately Howe. Thinking while fighting, probably the best person I have picked things from was Pat MacNamera. All around fighting with guns, I would credit Pat Rogers, Chappy, Doc Spears, Yeti and the crew at EAG.....great bunch who not only have been there but care about you.
So as far as on the job vs after or outside of the job.....hard to say since I am still working. Never served in the MIL, one of my biggest regrets but most of the training I have received came while on the job, but outside of normal channels.

R

 

[Mick-boy]

I definitely agree that the unit(s) you're from and the time frame when you were there has a huge affect on the quality of training and mind set that you cultivate. I honestly think that the Marine Corps teaches mind set pretty well. However the time frame I was in, we were still holding tightly to a "one shot, one kill", iron sights and time on the KD range are all you need, mentality. I didn't get my first optic (ACOG) until halfway through my second Iraq deployment in '04. I could make a fixed loop sling and hit from the 500, but I didn't know shit about burning a man down from half a block away.. Ask me which one was more important.

The basic marksmanship that I was taught was good, but it wasn't gunfighting by any stretch.

 

[jlw]

100% of my skill set is directly attributed to my profession; however, the caveat is that I have sought and continue to seek training opportunities, and my respective agencies have not footed the bill for all of my training and practice.

 

[borebrush]

I definitely agree that the unit(s) you're from and the time frame when you were there has a huge affect on the quality of training and mind set that you cultivate. I honestly think that the Marine Corps teaches mind set pretty well. However the time frame I was in, we were still holding tightly to a "one shot, one kill", iron sights and time on the KD range are all you need, mentality. I didn't get my first optic (ACOG) until halfway through my second Iraq deployment in '04. I could make a fixed loop sling and hit from the 500, but I didn't know shit about burning a man down from half a block away.. Ask me which one was more important.

The basic marksmanship that I was taught was good, but it wasn't gunfighting by any stretch.

Excellent contrast.

My unit was the first to receive ACOGs as a pilot program of sorts from the Warfighting lab in 1999. Of course the green weenie is continual... They shipped us Forces optics (TA47s) and they got our TA01s. They the limpwristed follow through of handing me platoons manuals and saying "you are the senior man, figure it out." I dont blame the Corps, I blame the PltCo for pencil whipping that.

The prior 1stSgt was much more forward leaning, SgtMaj Booker. He had us doing ready ups, turn and shoots, shooting on the move, and FTS/NSRs at the company level back in 98.

The Corps has somehow gotten away with alot of trickledown mentoring in place of standarized training. The CMP was a valid attempt to fix it, but it got watered down like the PMI/coach program.

 

[Atlas]

For rifle/carbine no. But I was fortunate enough to go to some basic high speed stuff. For hand gun. I learned more outside. quite honestly the military doesn't need better weapons. They need to make better shooters. this could be accomplished by getting rid of ammo burns and more range days.