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[Runcible]

In general, solutions that create their own problems are unworthy of our consideration; it's a 1:1 trade, rather then a buy in for more value added.

In specific, the BAD lever ain't verbotten for me solely because it increases the rate of malfunctions; but because it increases the rate and complexity of malfunctions while hazing the diagnosis of same with deceptive tactile feedback. As elaborated upon on fb, shooters using the normal stimulus\response pairings in response to a premature-bolt-lockback or bolt-forward-on-empty have a lot of handjive to work through unless they shitcan their non-diagnostic responses (ie. IA dill, reload) to any given stoppage. Intent aside, the BAD lever in practice is like a hardware means to exploiting shooter software to burn up all of that extra time you don't need to be doing something important... But, the failure modes of a BAD-equipped AR suit well those who always stare at the weapon first, and are in no rush for violence.

 

[Grayman]

Has anyone done an objective test of malfunction clearance time w/ vs. w/out a BAD equipped rifle?

I'd be very interested in assigning a numeric value to the significance of the time we are talking here.

 

[Runcible]

Trend analysis of any data is going to be skewed when a shooter of reasonable carbine training encounters either of the failure modes, given the length of time involved.

With BAD:
BAD-induced bolt-forward-on-empty > trigger press and click > IA drill; if bolt locks to rear > speed reload > reassess/reengage

Without BAD:
Bolt locks to rear, empty > speed reload > reassess/reengage

With BAD:
BAD-induced bolt-rear-with-ammo-remaining > speed reload (possibly while cursing heavily) > reassess/reengage

Without BAD:
Bolt-forward-with-ammo-remaining > keep shooting

The BAD lever does not help resolve the malfunctions it induces; only those with other causation.

 

[Matt Landfair]

What about training scars for those who have only trained with the BAD- and then use a rifle without...?

 

[Runcible]

Dang. The safety issues associated with the trigger finger entering the trigger guard without appropriate cause, and then entering search mode unconsciously, as the other hand is manipulating the charging handle and thus jostling the overall weapon; would be rather unsettling.

 

[AresGear_Jake]

Dang. The safety issues associated with the trigger finger entering the trigger guard without appropriate cause, and then entering search mode unconsciously, as the other hand is manipulating the charging handle and thus jostling the overall weapon; would be rather unsettling.

Why would you ever put your finger inside the trigger guard to use the BAD? We're not running M1s here; that sounds like asking for trouble. I've always used the side of a straight and extended trigger finger to push up on the lever.


- Jake

 

[Runcible]

Slips and captures were specifically what I had in mind - the questing finger not finding its' usual reference, and continuing the searching motion in search of tactile response.

 

[AresGear_Jake]

I must be doing it wrong, then; if I miss the BAD once, I do it the "old" way. I'd still never stick my finger inside the trigger guard looking for it; the ONLY thing I do inside the trigger guard is pull the trigger.

I think a lot of you guys are throwing the baby out with the bathwater; this isn't a Serpa (which rewards/promotes bad gun handling) or an IPSC holster for off-duty carry. It's a widget.

Some of you have seen guns stop working when the widget was placed on them...was it LAPD whose new G22s didn't work with lights? That wasn't Surefire's fault. If your bolt catch spring is up to spec, the BAD works. If not, it can cause malfunctions. Springs should be replaced when they cause malfunctions, shouldn't they?

I get what some of you are saying re: reliability being your key concern...but many of the people using that line seem to be operating under the assumption that this widget does lots of harm and no good. I'd argue that this widget only does harm to bad shooters, out-of-spec guns, or both...and the good is relative to your needs/mission.

If it's not for you, it's not for you, and that's FINE (and your decision). I just think people aren't being objective on the subject.


- Jake

 

[Runcible]

Well, literally you'd be doing it right if you head off bad actions/habits off deliberately and before formation

Bearing with that, as my BAD contact is dated and layered over with more recent/higher-rep training, I may have this all wrong.

That said - the question I replied to was to how a shooter with only BAD-centric training might respond - one whom might be unable to default to the traditional manual of arms that they've still not learned, as you describe yourself doing if the lever is missed.

I like the Surefire/G22 ref, in general; but think some will find it supports the other side of the argument. Didn't that pairing mostly increase the rate of malfunctions, that were still resolvable as usual?

 

[AresGear_Jake]

I like the Surefire/G22 ref, in general; but think some will find it supports the other side of the argument. Didn't that pairing mostly increase the rate of malfunctions, that were still resolvable as usual?

Fair point; perhaps a better example would be a G22 with an X300 and DG switch, where the light/switch gets blamed for a) causing malfunctions and b) causing NDs. One is actually a gun issue, and the other is a shooter issue. Neither is the fault of the light/switch combo.


- Jake

 

[Runcible]

Jake, I can dig that variation of the metaphor - I'm tracking.

TE, that's following a parallel track to deselecting "auto forwarding the slide during pistol reloads" as a considered "technique," for what it's worth. Nothing substantial other then I thought it an interesting similarity in logic.

 

[AresGear_Jake]

"if I miss the BAD once, I do it the "old" way"

I'm not really seeing, then, the advantage of the BAD. If you can "miss" it, and have to do a standard malfunction clearance in that event anyways, then wouldn't it be faster and more efficient to just use the standard malfunction clearance from the start? Not to mention your standard malfunction clearance will likely be more fluid, because you'll get more reps on it than you will if you can just take the BAD shortcut x% of the time.

I'm all about faster, lighter, better, more efficient, etc. etc., but to me the BAD is an example of a solution looking for a problem and a wallet.

That's flawed reasoning. The advantage is that I've missed that lever maybe twice in the last few years...which makes for an awful lot of malfunction clearances and reloads that were more ergonomic and efficient than the alternative.

In the interests of efficiency, why promote a goofy 2-handed process to lock a bolt back instead of doing it as naturally as locking a slide back on a pistol? There are only three arguments I've heard against it:

1 - It causes mechanical malfunctions.
2 - It gives the shooter another way to fuck shit up.
3 - I don't like/respect the guy who came up with it.

3 is irrelevant. An idea should be judged on its own merits.

2 is irrelevant; use your shit properly, or don't use it. If I can't remember to use the safety on a 1911, that doesn't mean we should ban the 1911, it just means I shouldn't use one.

1 is questionable; it appears to only cause mechanical malfunctions in guns with deteriorating springs. So if you want to run a BAD, replace your springs periodically. That's fair, right?




- Jake

 

[FailureDrill]

As a lefty running the AR FOW, I wouldn't recommend the BAD lever for a couple reasons. If you don't have an ambi mag catch, as you move your right thumb up to activate the standard mag catch during a bolt lock reload, it would commonly rake against the end of the BAD lever causing the bolt to be released forward on an empty chamber and increase the time the reload. Also, a good index of the trigger finger has it resting on the portion of the BAD lever coming down from the bolt catch. So, during type 1 malfunction clearance (push/pull/rack/roll) the bolt would lock to the rear unexpectedly and frequently. Plus, with a standard bolt catch I can press the bottom of it to lock the bolt to the rear on malfunctions without a BAD lever in place so there isn’t that advantage. I can also roll my trigger finger up and release the bolt catch on a reload without the lever.

I do, however, understand the draw of the BAD on manipulations for the right hander.

I think the rub with all this is that for many on this forum, we are sought out by normal patrol dudes, big Army Joe’s and other users who aren’t sure what they need or why. They see things, watch videos, and BAM, they think they need something to be successful in their context. Before I just blanket recommended something for use, I would want to know that it is useful not only for the dude I’m recommending it too, but everyone that he may potentially come in contact with who will ask him about it. For my job, that means other cops talking to other cops. I try to recommend stuff that I know is durable, works in a large variety of situations and takes into account that patrol dude may not be willing to put in the time to master the nuances of the BAD lever, but instead may fuck himself up with it a lot. Maybe it is his failing, but it is reality. I’ve also yet to see someone with a BAD lever that can truly wring out the performance difference in it compared to a capable user without it.

More frequently, it seems that it is intended to be a hardware solution for a lack of practice/skill problem.

Your individual mileage may vary and if you use one and it makes you put down mutts faster and betterer, more power to you.

 

[K Williams]

Bad lever on a redi-mag equipped rifle I can understand perhaps, due to the difficulty in getting to the bolt catch.

For a non RM equipped gun, I have to ask why in the context of a fight?

Faster empty gun reloads? If my empty gun reload is 3.0 seconds with a stock M4 and it's 1.25 seconds for me to transition to my pistol, the answer is still transition to my pistol. I haven't put the bad lever on a timer recently (used one for 6 months 2 years ago) but it definitely will not/did not make my empty gun reloads faster than a transition.

Makes malfunction clearances faster? Not for simple malfunctions as I'm not locking the bolt to the rear anyway (Tap, Tug, Rack).

So we are left with complex malfunctions: Failure to extract/stuck case, double feed, charging handle impingement, bolt override with an empty case, BO with a live round, stovepipe.
Will a bad lever and the associated hand position allow you to clear a stuck case or a bolt override with a live round?
Will it assist in clearing doubles feeds? Perhaps a fraction of a second faster, but again I'm going to my pistol unless I have time, distance, cover, etc.

What I have seen first hand multiple times with experienced and novice shooters is a situation where a shooter shoots his gun empty, dumps the magazine, and inadvertently contacts the bad lever dropping the bolt prematurely while doing an empty gun reload. Shooter comes back on target, click instead of bang, does immediate action, blah blah blah. How's that bad lever helping him now?

A well practiced, unconsciously competent malfunction clearance process trumps any wonder part that promises to do same.

 

[Snake]

A well practiced, unconsciously competent malfunction clearance process trumps any wonder part that promises to do same.

If I'm understanding you correctly, what you're saying essentially is that being well practiced in the standard manual or arms and traditional methods of clearing malfunctions makes battery assist levers a moot point. In short, "practice makes perfect, and also needs no widget."

What Jake is saying synched right up with what I was saying earlier: If your spring is in spec, you'll be fine with battery assist lever devices, as the cause for "lever induced" malfunctions is actually the bolt catch spring getting weak over time, not that battery assist levers are voodoo of some sort or that their users are practitioners of such black arts.

I want to commend Jake for hitting the nail on the head in all the points he's made, but also, the other side to the coin of practice makes perfect is that the same logic applies to battery assist lever operation as it does to the standard manual of arms and operation of the bolt catch/release: If you practice, you'll be fine. If you don't, you'll fuck up. There's a short period of a learning curve, I've only experienced one or two "oh shit, oops" moments where I hit the lever and dropped the bolt when I meant to hit the mag release to drop an empty mag, fortunately they were both on the range in a practice setting. Once that teething period is passed, and you've practiced with it enough (both with live fire and dry fire using dummy rounds/snap caps/etc,) it really doesn't happen. I don't remember the last time it happened to me and I've had battery assist levers on my guns for a good few years now.

I find left handed operation of an AR fitted with a battery assist lever to be very reminiscent of operating a FAL when dropping the bolt on a fresh mag.

3 - I don't like/respect the guy who came up with it.

3 is irrelevant. An idea should be judged on its own merits.

Eric's a really cool guy who I've had the privilege of meeting and hanging out with a few times, who's got a problem with him?