If a device or add on to your duty weapon made your overall ability to manipulate the weapon slightly better at the cost of slightly increasing the failure rate of the weapon- would you use it?
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- Thread starter Matt Landfair
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Grayman
Established
For me bang vs click is the number one priority. I would not sacrifice reliability for anything less than a revolutionary change in manipulation.
I.E. the change from well designed revolvers to early semi-auto handguns, possibly some decrease in reliability yes but an absolutely revolutionary change in weapon manipulation.
What are we talking about here??? Now I'm curious!
I.E. the change from well designed revolvers to early semi-auto handguns, possibly some decrease in reliability yes but an absolutely revolutionary change in weapon manipulation.
What are we talking about here??? Now I'm curious!
Stuff...
Bourneshooter
Blue Line Sheepdog
Grayman if you were on the Bookface you would know the carryover of this discussion.
For me, nope.
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For me, nope.
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Honestly - averting a potential catastrophe due to the removal of a questionable piece of equipment is worth setting this whole thing (FB groups & forum) up.
Maybe. Which, if we're being honest with ourselves, should be everyone's answer. Otherwise, why run a RDS instead of irons? Why change your trigger? We are all always balancing "reliable enough" and "efficient enough"; reliability should be a main concern, but if it was your ONLY concern, you'd be walking into battle carrying a rock.
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borebrush
Not Pumpkin
I know alot was missed with the back and forth, but there is something here that I want to explain so the "likers" understand why the "haters" hate.
We should only add what improves our lethality. However, getting into the minutia there are plenty of add-ons that are poorly conceived, executed, or exasperated an unforeseen weakness.
i.e. sling swivel receiver end plates.
The Receiver End Plate isn't designed to take rotational torque. So older designs break staking, newer designs incorporate ears that prevent rotation.
Likewise, the Bolt catch is designed to do a couple things. It locks the bolt open by either shooter manipulation or the magazine follower actuation. The spring and plunger are designed and spec'd to provide a certain amount of tension so that the mag follower/spring can over ride it even when fouling is present.
Adding a 4" lever arm including its mass (inertia) places more leverage and mass on the lever arm. The magazine spring not only has to fight through the drag created by fouling but also the added mass and leverage of the BAD lever. It's my SWAG that this is what prematurely kills the Bolt Catch spring, while narrowing the threshold in which the bolt catch functions properly.
We should only add what improves our lethality. However, getting into the minutia there are plenty of add-ons that are poorly conceived, executed, or exasperated an unforeseen weakness.
i.e. sling swivel receiver end plates.
The Receiver End Plate isn't designed to take rotational torque. So older designs break staking, newer designs incorporate ears that prevent rotation.
Likewise, the Bolt catch is designed to do a couple things. It locks the bolt open by either shooter manipulation or the magazine follower actuation. The spring and plunger are designed and spec'd to provide a certain amount of tension so that the mag follower/spring can over ride it even when fouling is present.
Adding a 4" lever arm including its mass (inertia) places more leverage and mass on the lever arm. The magazine spring not only has to fight through the drag created by fouling but also the added mass and leverage of the BAD lever. It's my SWAG that this is what prematurely kills the Bolt Catch spring, while narrowing the threshold in which the bolt catch functions properly.
JekPokins
Amateur
For me it would depend on the product in question and my individual needs.
Despite that thread, I'm not throwing away any of my BAD levers. I've never had a problem that was caused by mine, nor have I seen one induced on any range I've been on. For me, personally, the rewards have beaten the risks at every turn with that particular device.
Despite that thread, I'm not throwing away any of my BAD levers. I've never had a problem that was caused by mine, nor have I seen one induced on any range I've been on. For me, personally, the rewards have beaten the risks at every turn with that particular device.
So then Jek- because you haven't seen it mean it won't happen to you? More importantly, it won't happen to you when you need it most?
Sacrificing reliability (BAD does that despite what you think) for some enhanced manipulation is not worth the cost.
Sacrificing reliability (BAD does that despite what you think) for some enhanced manipulation is not worth the cost.
Riafdnal, I think you might be oversimplifying it. The BAD doesn't cause malfunctions on all guns. (In fact, I've never seen it cause a malfunction on a properly maintained gun that wasn't the shooter's fault.). The primary benefit of the lever is increased speed and control in clearing malfunctions.
Using your same logic, just because you've seen it doesn't mean it will happen to Jek; gaining enhanced manipulation for malfunction clearance may be worth the (as yet unobserved) downsides from his perspective.
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Using your same logic, just because you've seen it doesn't mean it will happen to Jek; gaining enhanced manipulation for malfunction clearance may be worth the (as yet unobserved) downsides from his perspective.
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JekPokins
Amateur
It absolutely doesn't mean it won't/ can't happen to me. I just find that through however many K rounds I've fired with a BAD in place that it isn't an even remotely high probability that it's going to jam me up (no pun intended). The conversation may indeed spark me to purchase a few extra bolt catch springs, but I'm still not convinced that the BAD lever is the devil. P-Mags have caused me far more issues than BAD levers.
It isn't the Devil, that Jake.
Snake
Newbie
(Ported over from the FB thread)
To expand on what borebrush said above, a little background on where that PSA came from:
Story time gentlemen. Got a little anecdote for you that I'm sure you'll enjoy, so grab a seat.
Learning occurred today. I have Chad Mercer to thank for that. In my HK416 post he said something short and concise, but it contained so much more insight and imparted more knowledge in one sentence than the entirety of the shit show this post turned into, that for me it was a eureka moment, and one I'm compelled to share.
He said, "The roll pin and spring weren't intended to hold the weight of the extra mass of the BAD lever."
Ah! It makes sense now! So the issue of the BAD lever is that the bolt catch spring is the weak point, whereby as the spring loses tension over time, the weight of the lever pulls down on the bolt release paddle and raises up the bolt catch, causing the premature bolt lock, and failure to lock back malfunctions as the part fluctuates.
*Now* I can understand why a rifle that was working fine with a BAD lever might suddenly start having issues.
Facts fly a lot farther than conjecture in my world, and it gets hard to filter opinion of heart from founded conclusion when pointless aggression and bravado are introduced, and you end up with "The BAD lever is stupid and if you like it you're retarded and full of shit" instead of facts regarding the mechanical aspect.
Now we understand WHY there's an issue. More importantly, now we know how to fix it if people prefer to carry one. There's a confidence that comes with knowing the root of a problem beyond a bad reputation. I'd have many more arrests under my belt if I could base my cases on hearsay/he said-she said instead conducting a thorough investigation proper.
That all being said: Now we have a simple "be advised": If you like the BAD lever and you're comfortable with its use and operation, just be mindful of your bolt catch/release spring over time. No different than preventative maintenance on your car. Spare parts are cheap & plentiful.
Or just don't use one. Up to you at the end of the day. I understand several have removed their BAD levers as per this discussion. Now those guys will be able to articulate why beyond "well a few guys told me..."
Again, I'd like to thank those instructors and SMEs who participated there and took a moment to teach and impart knowledge.
To expand on what borebrush said above, a little background on where that PSA came from:
Story time gentlemen. Got a little anecdote for you that I'm sure you'll enjoy, so grab a seat.
Learning occurred today. I have Chad Mercer to thank for that. In my HK416 post he said something short and concise, but it contained so much more insight and imparted more knowledge in one sentence than the entirety of the shit show this post turned into, that for me it was a eureka moment, and one I'm compelled to share.
He said, "The roll pin and spring weren't intended to hold the weight of the extra mass of the BAD lever."
Ah! It makes sense now! So the issue of the BAD lever is that the bolt catch spring is the weak point, whereby as the spring loses tension over time, the weight of the lever pulls down on the bolt release paddle and raises up the bolt catch, causing the premature bolt lock, and failure to lock back malfunctions as the part fluctuates.
*Now* I can understand why a rifle that was working fine with a BAD lever might suddenly start having issues.
Facts fly a lot farther than conjecture in my world, and it gets hard to filter opinion of heart from founded conclusion when pointless aggression and bravado are introduced, and you end up with "The BAD lever is stupid and if you like it you're retarded and full of shit" instead of facts regarding the mechanical aspect.
Now we understand WHY there's an issue. More importantly, now we know how to fix it if people prefer to carry one. There's a confidence that comes with knowing the root of a problem beyond a bad reputation. I'd have many more arrests under my belt if I could base my cases on hearsay/he said-she said instead conducting a thorough investigation proper.
That all being said: Now we have a simple "be advised": If you like the BAD lever and you're comfortable with its use and operation, just be mindful of your bolt catch/release spring over time. No different than preventative maintenance on your car. Spare parts are cheap & plentiful.
Or just don't use one. Up to you at the end of the day. I understand several have removed their BAD levers as per this discussion. Now those guys will be able to articulate why beyond "well a few guys told me..."
Again, I'd like to thank those instructors and SMEs who participated there and took a moment to teach and impart knowledge.
We are all kind of kidding ourselves. If reliability was NUMBER ONE. We would all be carrying AK's.
"Combat effectiveness" including lethality, accuracy, ergonomics and shootability, are more important to me than flawless operation.
So the MR556 is a great balance for me of all of those things, but I'm happy with any good AR as well. They are as reliable as the MR556 (for shorter duration) and are easier to shoot, and possibly more accurate.
I can keep a 1911 running, but I got invest a lot of time in it. The Glock on the other hand gets the slide removed quarterly and a little more lube added or flushed out with some carb cleaner.....
"Combat effectiveness" including lethality, accuracy, ergonomics and shootability, are more important to me than flawless operation.
So the MR556 is a great balance for me of all of those things, but I'm happy with any good AR as well. They are as reliable as the MR556 (for shorter duration) and are easier to shoot, and possibly more accurate.
I can keep a 1911 running, but I got invest a lot of time in it. The Glock on the other hand gets the slide removed quarterly and a little more lube added or flushed out with some carb cleaner.....