Rifle plates show and tell

[Grayman]

Moved over from FB:

Rifle Plate show and tell. What are you running and why

Tim Braginton
Correct group found, own pee pee spanked and learning occurred.

Will copy over the responses from the wrong group.
Like4Reply · More · Tuesday at 1:25pm
Tim Braginton
Adam Syfrett
I know we've cussed and discussed the matter some Tim...but...personally, if cost is no object, I'd be running the Tencate 6400SA's, particularly since the HESCO plates that you sourced are no longer in production. If you're wanting a more budget friendly solution, the 2000SA based plate is a good route to go. I'm still waiting to see testing on the 8075SA and 3400SA. The 3400SA looks to be a monster plate when it comes to protection, but it's heavy. They aren't horribly priced though when last I looked.
LikeReply · More · Tuesday at 1:26pm
Tim Braginton
Adam Syfrett
I know everyone views the VelSys PBZ's as awsome-and they are!-but the Tencate 6400's are stand alone, and marginally less expensive than the PBZ's.
LikeReply · More · Tuesday at 1:26pm
Tim Braginton
Adam Syfrett

I hoped you would chime in for this!

I agree the PBZ has a rep for being the cool guy plate and for good reason. But even with bro pricing they are in a league all their own... I have no doubt they are worth it but my money went a lot further elsewhere.

I didn't know the Hesco ALAP plates had been discontinued... I haven't kept up with the market I'll admit. For my money I would and still do steer guys towards the 2000SA's.

I'll snag the spec sheet when I get back to work and post it up. For less than $300 a plate it covers all of the threats I deem pertinent in my AO and still manages to keep a low weight/thickness profile compared to the competition.

I spent well over a year doing my research into plates before I made my purchase. The market offerings have changed significantly since then so I'd love to hear what other guys are looking at.

Post up the spec sheets if you've got em
Like1Reply · More · Tuesday at 1:39pm
Tank McStabby
DKX makes a lvl 3 Dyneema plate that is 2.9 pounds (and floats).
http://dkxarmor.com/#page-about-dkx-solutions
LikeReply · More · Tuesday at 2:24pm
Adam Syfrett
Problem with the DKX plates are they don't stop M855....
LikeReply · More · Tuesday at 2:35pm
Mate Standard
Is this Adam S from LF?
Adam Syfrett
Mate Standard Yep
Adam Syfrett
Data Sheets for the Tencate Plates I mentioned:
LikeReply · More · Tuesday at 2:35pm
Adam Syfrett
2000SA: http://www.tencate.com/amer/Images/TCAA%20AMER%20P3%20-%20Product%20Data%20Sheet%20-%20Cratus%202000SA_R3_tcm29-33017.pdf

3400SA: http://www.tencate.com/amer/Images/TCAA%20AMER%20P3%20-%20Product%20Data%20Sheet%20-%20Cratus%203400SA_R2_tcm29-35253.pdf

8075SA: http://www.tencate.com/amer/Images/TCAA%20AMER%20P3%20-%20Product%20Data%20Sheet%20-%20Cratus%208075SA_R1_tcm29-35504.pdf

6400SA: http://www.tencate.com/amer/Images/TCAA%20AMER%20P3%20-%20Product%20Data%20Sheet%20-%20Cratus%206400SA_R3_tcm29-30832.pdf
See Translation
LikeReply · More · Tuesday at 2:36pm
Adam Syfrett
Please note I'm not recommending the 8075SA plate at this time, as I've NOT seen how it does when it comes to spall. Being an uncoated steel plate, that MAY be a concern.
LikeReply · More · Tuesday at 2:37pm
Adam Syfrett
Tim Braginton Yea...the HESCO ALAP plates were discontinued shortly after you snagged them. They were a hidden gem for sure. PBZ thin/light plates, for a lot less cash. Damn shame there, but that's the way the market goes sometimes.
LikeReply · More · Tuesday at 2:38pm
Adam Syfrett
Oh...and here is a link to the Tencate Quick Reference sheet that lists all their hard armor options-
http://www.tencate.com/amer/Images/TCAA%20P3%20-%20Cratus%20Hard%20Body%20Armor%20Series%20Quick%20Reference%20Chart%20Rev16%20as%20of%2020%20DEC%202014_tcm29-33035.pdf
Edited · LikeReply · More · Tuesday at 2:40pm
Tim Braginton
Adam Syfrett

I wonder if Pappy can find any of the ALAP plates still around... i need a back one.
LikeReply · More · Tuesday at 2:55pm
Adam Syfrett
Last I heard, the ALAP1520's are gone, unfortunately
LikeReply · More · Tuesday at 6:29pm
Ben Miller
Gary
Like1Reply · More · Yesterday at 3:24am
Terry J. David
‪#‎GMFH2016‬
Tim Braginton
Where's my other armor guys? What are you running I want this to be a good source of info for guys looking to buy
LikeReply · More · Yesterday at 11:16am
Matt Landfair
The best thing to do is have this on the forum. We don't lose threads on the forum and providing links is easy.
LikeReply · More · Yesterday at 2:12pm

 

[AT Armor]

Missed the fb discussion, sorry.

The laundry list of options is large, the Tencate listing above is a good example of how it becomes a paradox of choice. To the OP, while the "what others are using" can be a good starting point I would recommend some backwards planning before looking at specific material solutions.

Doesnt matter if it is an entire PD / agency, individual officer, or citizen the process we use is the same.
1. Determine the most likely threat (s) you will encounter. Not "most dangerous" or some uncommon threat unless you see an absolute need to protect against it specifically.
2. Balance the following criteria: cost, weight/thickness, durability (material) within your requirements. Cost and weight will always be at odds with one another.
3. Use. Will the plate be worn over IIIA every time or is there a stand alone requirement? How often (frequency) and how long (duration) will they be worn? What conditions?

Only after those are answered should you go after cut, curve, sizing and individual solutions (plate make and model) and any specific requirements for certification (Level III, Level IV, ICW/SA, .06 or .04 etc)

I cant tell you how many times we have talked clients through the process and they decide on a $300 P34 when they initially thought they needed a plate that cost 4x. Or they could get by with a less expensive heavier stand alone single curve because after applying the methodology it was realized the plates would be worn a little and stored a lot.

All that being said, there are some outstanding options on the market now.

To answer your original question of what is in the carrier? In my armor carrier (LPAC) the original Velocity BZ plates over Velocity VS13 concealment cut. In my PC, the new Velocity BZ Stand alone plates, no backers (IIIA sides). These meet my requirements, and are obscenely light (one of my requirements) but I would be just as covered using a set of the Hesco Level IV plates, some of the other special threat plates on the market, or the old set of P34s with backers I used to use.

Vr
Mike

 

[Grayman]

Mike,

This is the kind of response that keep guys coming back to this place!

Thank you for the insight!

What is the weight in the SA PBZ's?

 

[AT Armor]

Mike,

This is the kind of response that keep guys coming back to this place!

Thank you for the insight!

What is the weight in the SA PBZ's?

Thank you Sir

Nominal weights:
Small 3.66lb
Med 4.16 lb
Lg 4.85 lb
XL 5.4lb

Vr
Mike

 

[Grayman]

Can't edit the OP without some Mod help... Would like to keep this geared towards LE patrol options.

 

[adam_s]

Mike-Good to have you here man. You're one of the folks who helped me learn a ton about armor, and I STILL am learning from you. Hell-I didn't even know there was a Stand-Alone version of the PBZ released.

For anyone else who missed out on this-you can find info on the plate on AT's store page: http://store.appalachiantraining.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=VS-PBZ-SA-MED

 

[Grayman]

Am I reading the spec sheet correctly... The PBZ-SA is not rate for M193 or other 5.56 high velocity threats?

 

[adam_s]

So, this is my pure inference, and Mike can correct me-but, M855A1 is basically M855 ammo moving at M193 velocities. Therefore, any plate that stops M855A1 will stop M193. This isn't the first plate I've seen with that sort of "gap" in the testing however.

 

[Bronson]

Guys - be VERY careful making inferences about ammunition and body armor capabilities.

M855A1 is a different animal.

It's velocity is clocking in at 2970-3100 FPS in 14.5" M4's.

Procurement of M855A1 for ballistic armor testing will prove difficult, as there are no plans to release that round commercially. Access to it is likewise restricted to the military, or in certain instances to industry for specific contracts. That being said - I can definitely see it making its way on to the street.

M855A1 has superior penetration capabilities than M855 and M193.

Attached are 2 Unclassified Slides that showcase it's capabilities to an extent.

 

[adam_s]

Bronson-Thank you for the information! It is very much appreciated. Generally I'm exceedingly hesitant to make any sort of ballistic inferences when it comes to armor. The M855A1 vs M193 is the only one I've discussed in public...and if that is incorrect from an armor testing standpoint, please let me know so I can correct myself.

There are several armor lines that have been tested by independent labs against M855A1 (several from Tencate, the VelSys PBZ-SA)-but NOT M193. This is rather lazy/cheap...and thus leads to the inferences made above.

 

[Bronson]

Personally: Unless a bullet has nearly identical velocity values and bullet type/construction - I would never compare them when it comes to lethality or survivability.

M193 vs. M855A1 have different bullet weights, velocities, and bullet type/construction.

I would likewise prefer independent labs / companies test multiple bullets per plate. However, I also recognize how expensive that will be.

 

[AT Armor]

It is simply an omission from the published BZ SA data. The Stand Alone BZ has been tested and successfully passed M193, it just isnt listed on the spec sheet. We let our Velocity Brothers know it was not called out specifically on the page, they will add 193 results to the sheet.

vr
Mike

 

[Grayman]

Mike,

Thanks just wanted to make sure it was covered.

Bronson,

Thanks for the insight! Helpful as always!
I can't count how many times I have heard guys who should know better make stupid statements about armor protection levels. It's easy to get caught up in the idea of bigger or faster rounds always having a greater level of theoretical penetration given a specific type of plate...

The reality I came to grips with in my search for viable plates was that unless the specific plate you plan to order has been tested against all of the specific threats you expect to face you're gambling with your life!

 

[MG6]

So what round-protection is a must have for US Law enforcement?

Definitely 193 and 855, but what about m80 ball and 762 x39 api?

 

[Grayman]

In my AO I wanted coverage for 855 193 and 7.62/39. We have a lot of the big bore hunting caliber rifles up here but I'll accept the risks and not wear .5" AR500 around....

 

[adam_s]

7.62x39mm API is not a threat here CONUS from my understanding. It is a ChiCom round that has never made it across the pond to this side of the world.
M80 ball (7.62x51mm) however I would consider a potentially reasonable threat given the prevalence of hunting rifles, and now .308 chambered AR pattern rifles.

 

[MG6]

I thought the common

7.62x39mm API is not a threat here CONUS from my understanding. It is a ChiCom round that has never made it across the pond to this side of the world.
M80 ball (7.62x51mm) however I would consider a potentially reasonable threat given the prevalence of hunting rifles, and now .308 chambered AR pattern rifles.

AK round had the steel core, and is not allowed at indoor ranges

 

[adam_s]

There is the 7.62x39 Mild Steel Core (MSC), and the 7.62x39 Armor Piercing Incendiary (API).

Mild Steel Core is prevalent here in the US, and should be accounted for. API is the round that is not an issue here CONUS. Take a look at the spec sheet for the VelSys PBZ for example-they call out BOTH types of 7.62x39 (MSC &API), as the plate was designed for OCONUS use in sandboxes which may have ChiCom supplies.
http://www.velsyst.com/store/236/42/7.62x39-API-BZ-ICW.html

 

[abomb5800]

I just got a set of these plate for $125 a piece. They are listed for multi hit icw for m855, 193, 7.62x39 mild steel core, and m80. They weight about 5 lbs and are .4" thick. I talked with the rep I bought them from and he watched it stop multi hit from all the above rounds.

http://www.safariland.com/body-armor/x-cal-lp-special-threat-rifle-plate-1166518.html


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk