RFI - UNIT Solutions

[Mick-boy]

I've been running a CQB program for a Gov't customer for a couple of years now. We've migrated from UTM (tons of QC issues on ammo) to Airsoft (not bad, not great, much cheaper) for our force-on-paper and force-on-force training. I recently saw Kyle Morgan talking about this company and I was wondering if there was anyone with first hand experience. I like the concept, but I have concerns. Anyone have hands on?

UNIT Solutions

UNIT Solutions offers the next generation of training rifle, built on a live AR chassis and featuring realistic recoil. Preferred by civilians & professionals, it allows you to train in your environment, on your own time. It ships right to your door and no FFL license is required.

unitsolutions.com

 

[Erick Gelhaus]

I tried two magazines worth at SHOT, I'm supposed to have one coming for review. I believe it will be viable, but I need to more time to be sure.

 

[Greg "Sully" Sullivan]

I've had an early prototype in my hands. Looks promising. My only concern would be cold or cool weather, where we have seen issues with gas powered type guns in both green gas and CO2 type where the gas seals get cold and then leak the gas making the guns inoperable.


CY6
Greg Sullivan "Sully"
SLR15 Rifles
TheDefensiveEdge.com
(763) 712-0123

 

[shoobe01]

Have had one for a little while. Tested and some brief use, will use for a full weekend in early April and hoping it's cold etc. I have also modified it to be more like my personal live guns, changing the rail out for example was interesting as well; e.g. couldn't use a reaction rod as the bolt carrier guideway is too small to make it a Non-Gun). Happy to chat further.

We are testing because (if mounted far enough forward) they set off MILES SATs so it can be an all-in-one close/long range FOF gun for a lot cheaper than UTMs and the sim-tuned SATs for those. Yes, we do airsoft for our FOF stuff for the cost AND fuller-spectrum (grenades, launchers, "belt fed" etc) so am comparing to all systems.

...My only concern would be cold or cool weather, where we have seen issues with gas powered type guns in both green gas and CO2 type where the gas seals get cold and then leak the gas making the guns inoperable.

My experience with (airsoft) gas guns in cold is that /mostly/ they get slower to cycle, so full auto gets silly or fails, but single shots work fine and muzzle velocity is minimally impacted.

We have fired this one at auto with none of the typical airsoft cool-down you get from auto bursts so I have high hopes they've solved this.


FWIW, video intro we did of the system, including some test firing on targets and people:

 

[shoobe01]

ETA: We also weighed the pellets and chronographed it (the new Garmin thing works!) as UNIT is way too coy about exact energy levels but I forget the results. Happy to be under whatever energy level we wanted for FOF safety but I can try to find the numbers if you want them.

 

[Mick-boy]

Thanks all. Happy to hear some first hand experience. I think the idea is very promising.

We moved to electric airsoft rifles for our training, primarily due to the rate we were destroying the CO2 magazines on the rifles we T&E'd. The rifles we've been using have been fine but not great. The cost savings has made it a real winner for the office but on the training side it's just okay. I want to have my cake and eat it too, these guys look like they might be a solution.

Shoobe, did you find it was comparable to SIMs or UTM as far as feel goes?

 

[shoobe01]

I'm not stupid enough to get shot with anything myself unless I have to

I say about the range and accuracy of UTM (I have much less experience with SIM of any sort), and while plenty of "notice" (people always can tell if hit, more than with 6 mm airsoft I'd say in our short tests so far, to the point they complained) there was no actual injury, not even a tiny bruise, at middling close ranges with only a shirt on. So, no worries about more PPE needed either; in the woods we're going to keep going with min engagement range, indoors move from goggles to full face protection etc as I suspect you do.

Electric is easier to maintain and gives you cheap magazines that are hard to break but I suspect your complaint for training is the manual of arms is pretty dramatically not correct. The airsoft gas guns solve this but (esp mags) are fragile, so I am HOPING that the UNIT gun gets the right balance between those; mags seem rugged though are expensive (I have reflective and GITD stripes to find them if lost), and that so much of the moving parts (feed and CO2) is a consumable that the expensive part never wears out. I hope.

They do offer a middling cheap tryout so get one and see. Like it and that applies to the cost and you buy it. Hate it and return.

Oh: and anyone in the KC area is free to come fondle mine, or we can all take it to the range or wherever and try it out, let me shoot you with it.

 

[Oak City Tactics]

As with all things CO2, do the velocities drop off toward the end of the mag? I'm guessing each mag doesn't have enough rounds to run out of CO2 and velocity should remain the same through 30 rounds. And each mag needs one fresh CO2 cartridge for each 30 rounds. Is this correct? My biggest concern was not operational cost but set up cost. With FOF or Sims a bolt swap and my gun is the same. Setting this up to match my gun exactly goes north of $1500 fast. One could use airsoft copies of the same parts but the then the performance is different. A light alone, which I would argue should be of similar light output, is adding as much as $400. Lasers obviously skyrocket the price as well. Slings, Similar optics and optics mounts and so forth.

 

[shoobe01]

Supposed to be a somewhat over twice as much gas as needed to fire a whole mag, and the "TPAKs" ("clip" let's call it, inside the mag) are ammo and gas together so it self-solves for having tons of spare CO2.

(For those talking about institutional use, this is VERY set up for that. These trays you lay out on a table and can tell everyone to pick one up — or does it — and easy to grab, to keep count, etc.)

It is a bit exciting therefore when you reload the mag with a clip, as gas flies out in quantity, but it does mean it seems to have plenty of gas. In theory you can reload by tediously stuffing pellets (and 8 mm is hard to get but not impossible) if using it personally to be cheap for training at home, etc but splitting the TPAK to reload the CO2 also is... hard. We have tried, and things like the part you break off the let the pellets feed are integral to getting it together.


Yes for duplicating service rifle. Last year I just pulled stuff and rezeroed, but the UNIT seems sturdy enough I feel okay about setting it up permanently as a dupe of my primary so while I went cheap on railed handguard, and may do some other, I am in the middle of purging some gear to afford (remember me: unemployed now) to get the sight, and just last week got the WML. Just because everyone likes photos, the way it's set now, with good but generation-or-two old stuff I had laying around spare. Buttstocks change with zero effort.


I already mentioned it's pointedly a non-gun, so /sometime/ you may run into things they changed for that. E.g. I am a TD Battlegrip nerd, so changed that and... the spring detent for the selector is in the wrong place for whatever reason. Took a while to even figure out what was wrong, though then easy to fix but Not Everyone is up for home gunsmithing so plan accordingly. I have No Idea what else is weird but if you have a favorite weird fire selector or mag latch, I bet it's not going to happen.


Oh and thanks for reminding me that I need to get a sling on this thing also. This does just add more to the never ending list of gun things to do.

 

[Mick-boy]

For my purposes, I set up the airsoft guns with Holosun red dots and Protac lights. Since these are not operational guns, I was going for something that gives a similar feel to Aimpoints and Surefires without paying the price. Slings and sling mounts are Magpul. I still put sacrificial lenses on both the optics and the lights though.

Any issues with an optic or light, I can just give the student a new gun and fix the problem after class.

If we go to the Unit solutions rifles, I'll just switch everything over.

 

[Joe _K]

Another option to consider. https://www.wolverineairsoft.com/product/daniel-defense-mtw-mk18/

Uses standard AR forged receiver sets. Probably one of the more realistic Airsoft Guns available, minus bolt catch/ bolt lock back and recoil.

You would probably want to look at getting the stored in stock HPA adapter that lets you run 12 gram or 33 gram CO2 cartridges, and 13/3,000 HPA tanks. https://www.wolverineairsoft.com/product/wraith-x/

Looks as though they have Dealers in Bennet and Erie.

 

[Mick-boy]

KWA AEG 3.0 Ronin Tactical T10-SBR w/ Kinetic Feedback System (Color: Black)

Shop Get ready to rain BB's onto your adversaries and feel experience every shot fired with the new KWA Ronin T10. The big brother to the Ronin T6, the Ronin T10 is the next evolution of KWA's patented AEG 3 design. Featuring the Kinetic Feedback System this AEG with electronic recoil will give...

www.evike.com

This is the gun we've been using. We were having so many ammo QC issues with out UTM guns that we had to make a change.

I bought fifteen of them in Q1 of 2022 and they've been holding up well. Three of the rifles have died. One was still under warranty and got fixed up. A couple of blown fuses due to shitty batteries. I've had to rebuild one of the gear boxes because a tiny little screw got into it and locked it up. The threaded rod that holds the safety selectors in place kept backing out so all the threaded rods and the tiny little screws got blue locktite. Otherwise it's been a good system.

Our students shoot roughly 1k rds over the course so with the cost savings airsoft offers over UTM we could, in theory, replace a rifle every class and still come out ahead financially. My biggest complaint about the airsoft rifle is that it doesn't stop working when it runs dry. Students either stop hearing/seeing effects on target and transition on their own, or they have to be told to transition because the instructors stop hearing/seeing rounds on target. Not the most realistic aspect of the training.

I'm going to put together a cost comparison between our current system and the Unit Solutions set up. I know airsoft will be cheaper, but it will give me some solid numbers to go to my boss with when I ask to buy one to T&E with the understanding that if it works well, we will replace our current FOP/FOF guns with them.

 

[shoobe01]

They do make "GBB" (Gas BlowBack) airsoft guns, which don't keep firing when dry (etc for similarity to real gun manual of arms). The UNIT gun is basically one of these at the core.

Might be good to try a napkin estimate of costs for those also (esp those you refill with gas, assuming a propane adapter because then gas is as dirt cheap as pellets) as it should fall in the middle between the two. (mags are much more expensive, and fragile so harder to emergency reload without breaking them).

(Again, yeah, I have one of those GBB guns in M4 guise around here so anyone local and unfamilar with these options can compare the airsoft electric, airsoft gas, and UNIT guns if they are avidly interested in the conversation for their training.)

 

[Mick-boy]

We T&E'd four or five different GBB M4s when we were originally shopping for UTM replacements The magazines being heavy and (relatively) fragile (breaking when emergency reloads were done), as well as the damage we were doing to the guns when students would tac load (breaking the plastic "bolts" when seating magazines) made them a no-go.

 

[Joe _K]

KWA AEG 3.0 Ronin Tactical T10-SBR w/ Kinetic Feedback System (Color: Black)

Shop Get ready to rain BB's onto your adversaries and feel experience every shot fired with the new KWA Ronin T10. The big brother to the Ronin T6, the Ronin T10 is the next evolution of KWA's patented AEG 3 design. Featuring the Kinetic Feedback System this AEG with electronic recoil will give...

www.evike.com

This is the gun we've been using. We were having so many ammo QC issues with out UTM guns that we had to make a change.

I bought fifteen of them in Q1 of 2022 and they've been holding up well. Three of the rifles have died. One was still under warranty and got fixed up. A couple of blown fuses due to shitty batteries. I've had to rebuild one of the gear boxes because a tiny little screw got into it and locked it up. The threaded rod that holds the safety selectors in place kept backing out so all the threaded rods and the tiny little screws got blue locktite. Otherwise it's been a good system.

Our students shoot roughly 1k rds over the course so with the cost savings airsoft offers over UTM we could, in theory, replace a rifle every class and still come out ahead financially. My biggest complaint about the airsoft rifle is that it doesn't stop working when it runs dry. Students either stop hearing/seeing effects on target and transition on their own, or they have to be told to transition because the instructors stop hearing/seeing rounds on target. Not the most realistic aspect of the training.

I'm going to put together a cost comparison between our current system and the Unit Solutions set up. I know airsoft will be cheaper, but it will give me some solid numbers to go to my boss with when I ask to buy one to T&E with the understanding that if it works well, we will replace our current FOP/FOF guns with them.

That particular AEG is supposed to stop firing after 30 rounds and not start again until it is reloaded as long as you use the proprietary PTS mags. As well as this one.

https://www.ptssyndicate.com/product-page/pts-cm4-c4-10-erg

 

[shoobe01]

...We've migrated from UTM (tons of QC issues on ammo) to Airsoft...

I never reacted to this. WHAT issues, if you are permitted to say?

 

[Mick-boy]

We received a couple of lots of pistol ammo that had failures to feed every 5-6 rounds. After lots of back and forth with UTM, including taking videos of me shooting our pistols and having the issue, they sent me a couple of cases of the NMRs and those fed much more reliably.

At the same time we were having those issues, our rifle ammo was having case separations. The student would fire the rifle and the bottom half of the case would eject leaving the top half in the chamber. This is obviously not fixable by the student during the scenario, so they would transition to pistol and have the failures to feed.

For our program vets, this was a hassle. For the guys trying to get a job, it was downright shitty. They were trying to exhibit an understanding of our SOPs and they could barely get through a scenario without both guns having multiple issue. In my view it did not allow for a fair assessment.

 

[shoobe01]

That is annoying. I also asked around offline with people I know and... I regret it. Ended up getting too many photos of them working "too well" and wounds from UTM (NMRs), inconsistently.

Properly checked (velocity and pellet weight) airsoft doesn't embed in skin and require a medical visit.

RELATED: Having to rent the MILES rigs for the next FOF event where we're combining stuff as mentioned above and the equipment owner heard all the horror stories of FOF pellet throwers, so I had to actually test MILES rigs with airsoft and the UNIT gun. Both the same, on actual stuff, Unit gun no more damaging than normal old 6 mm airsoft so that's nice to know.

If you need to know more for any arms room people who seem similarly reluctant, the only damage was to MILES 2000 (not the older stuff; I don't have a scrap IWS or newer rig to shoot at) and only with repeated rounds at 3 ft range. The square synch window on the shoulder seemed like it might eventually fail so I'd likely cover that with something, and the control box display protective cover popped off (after 10 rounds!) so keep the damned fabric cover closed.

 

[shoobe01]

A couple UNIT things I maybe will gripe at them directly about but just watch-out-for level things so far:

1) I guess the paint maybe goes bad when unsealed? We use NMRs for our purposes, but with the trial one I got a pack of paint, have been using for famfire (when into a target etc where it doesn't matter) and zeroing and stuff. Well, last three mags I did that with I had to strip and clean the gun. They are leaking, not so much bursting like old bad paintball days, but enough the accuracy drops instantly to like 40 moa. Cannot hit a person at 10 yards reliably, that sort of bad.
(Remember, airsoft internal ballistics are more like early black powder, with blowby and stuff, not obturation).



2) I managed to get a TPAK stuck inside the magazine body (probably one that got dropped onto concrete* during a reload. When empty and I went to unload, it didn't slide out. I took the entire baseplate off and then tapped it on concrete and eventually it flew up at great speed, smacked the ceiling and broke into pieces and sprayed around the room. If anyone had been over it, maybe ER visit time. Really launched.


So on inspecting — and this may be in the manual, but still the rest of the system is idiotproof — we realized there is a procedure supported by the mechanism. When you want to change out a TPAK, release to the first step, then STOP.

Make sure the gas released and the TPAK is rattling around inside the magazine, so will come out freely and is not under any pressure. THEN release the safety clip to get the thing apart.

I should not have released the whole baseplate, even if I had to whack the thing to get it out, there's a thing to prevent it launching into space or through your eye so use it, but as I said: procedural, not enforced by the mechanism automatically.



* I avoid this still because 1) cost of the magazine if it does break 2) while heavy duty I still do not trust them not to break 3) they still have the biggest issue that airsoft gas mags have in that empty they weigh a lot still so plenty of mass to cause momentum based damage or even injury. I've seen real rifle magazines disassemble themselves if dropped during a stoppage drill, fumbled reload etc. If practicing emergency reloads, try to set it up so the mags fall on a soft ish surface. I may try to figure out how to maybe glue on rubber pads to the baseplate to alleviate this since e.g. old school Magpul won't work with the basepad mechanism.

 

[shoobe01]

Since I had to justify it to some folks in my orgs:
• Airsoft GBBR a little over 1¢ per shot.
• Unit Solutions (non marking) 17¢ a round.
• Blanks are not less than 60¢ a round,
• UTM and Sim F/X are not less than 97¢

(UTM and F/X are bulk prices as well, others are small quantity retail)

This is consumable cost, not lifecycle costs. Airsoft will be more expensive than apparently shown due to more fragile equipment. Even good guns have fragile magazines, for example, but harder to generalize on those expenses. Blanks imply MILES which has other consumables as well as also repair costs etc etc.


Also for cheapskate mode: I bought a bag of 8 mm pellets from Evike (big airsoft store).

Here I'm unloading all of the paint pellets from what is left in the sample pack. We don't use them for force on force, and they seem to have gone old anyway, I get lots of breaks when using them to mess with the gun for chrono, zero, other testing. So, replacing them with the plain white pellets.

If you load the TPAK smartly, there's enough gas for over two full magazines of pellets. That means plenty of juice to fire in cold, if bad at loading, etc. but also that you can stuff more pellets in. Not necessarily worth it for the time and fuss in a training environment, but on the bench when doing function checks and zeroing and so on as I said, a way to get every bit of gas out of it.

We have looked into reloading the CO2 as well and they are 1) different sized cartridges we'd have to source and buy specifically for this 2) it is tedious to open the TPAK but possible, but re-assembly seems hard or impossible without making tools. The part you break at the bottom is crucial to keeping it all together for assembly so we'd have to make something to snag the follower, and that seems just a step too far to bother with.