RDS or 1-4x24 for carbine?

Ashdown

Ashdown

Newbie
I was recently introduced to the 1-4x24 scope world, and with all the fantastic brand options out there in this class I am seeking opinions. Not on models per se, but do you think the scopes in this class could effectively replace the 1x RDS while offering more flexibility at extended ranges? Or do you think that the RDS could never be replaced for faster target acquisition? If you only had one carbine which one of the two optics would you choose? I appreciate any insight to those with any experience, thanks!
 
jryock

jryock

Amateur
My preference of optic for a personal defense/ close quarters carbine is a RDS. They are lighter and more forgiving (e.g. eye relief, parallax, etc.) for me than their scoped counterparts. For everything else, I like 1-4x or 2.5-10x scopes to identify shot placement and to properly identify a target.
 
Grayman

Grayman

Established
What 1-4x options have reticles with sufficient illumination to allow daytime use.

I'm looking for something reasonably affordable that I can use as a test platform to analyze the validity of a magnified optic for our agency's patrol rifle program.... It's going to need to be nearly as fast as a RDS up close.
 
Grayman

Grayman

Established
Jake,

I'd love to go the trijicon route but this is a proof of concept project and will be self funded. I have no doubt the trijicon is worth every penny but just doesn't make fiscal sense for this project.

I may go that route eventually but for right now I am looking at more budget minded options. Like wedding this fall and no overtime available kinda budget.....
 
AresGear_Jake

AresGear_Jake

Stiffer Is Better
Vendor
The Trijicon is barely more than an Aimpoint, and can be found for ~$500 used. What was your budget for the 1-4?


- Jake
 
Grayman

Grayman

Established
For a proof of concept acquisition I was hoping to be in the sub-$500 range with a mount... I know this is not sufficient funding for a quality piece of glass. I am only interested in giving the concept of a magnified optic a fair shake and am not looking for this to be an actual piece of my duty equipment.

I plan to run some head to head to head testing between a RDS, magnified optic, and a supplementary magnification device for the RDS. This will all be self funded so I can't exactly go to town with the purchases...

Moral of the story: Like your expendable income? Don't get married!
 
AresGear_Jake

AresGear_Jake

Stiffer Is Better
Vendor
I understand; I'm light on funds myself right now.

Staying under $500 for an optic/mount package won't let you give it a fair shake. A quality mount alone is $100-$150, leaving you with $350-$400 for your primary optic. At that point, you're limited to the Walmart specials. Had you planned to keep the RDS/magnifier combo under $500 as well?


- Jake
 
Grayman

Grayman

Established
That was my fear. What I don't want to do is wind up with a completely sub-par setup that unfairly biases me away from this particular optic platform. I was looking at the options from Primary Arms and Burris as they fell within my price range. I don't particularly need a nice mount as QD won't be factoring into my analysis...

As for the RDO magnification route I was again looking into the Primary Arms options...

My goal is simply to see what strengths and weaknesses each option brings to the table and what platform is best suited to my particular needs in my AO. I'm beginning to think I'd be best served trying to ferret out a T&E sample of a quality offering for this process.
 
Andy Beefcastle

Andy Beefcastle

Member
I have several Aimpoints and a Leupold Mark6 1-6x.
I've also looked through several scopes ranging from the Leupold VX-6 1-6x, Burris XTR-II 1-5x, Vortex Razor HD GenII 1-6x, Trijicon AccuPoint 1-4x, Leupold Mark AR 1.25-4x, Leupold VX-R Patrol 1.25-4x, Leupold MR/T 1.5-5x, NightForce NXS Compact 1-4x, Nikon M-223 1-4x, Vortex Viper PST 1-4x, Weaver Tactical 1-5x and Millet DMS 1-4x.


What I've learned is that without a doubt the RDS is the superior optic in close-quarter and rapid engagement situations. There is no eye relief, the eye box is extremely large from side to side, and the reticle is visible in any light condition. These features make the RDS capable in numerous situations, like asymmetrical shooting positions (roll-over prone, SBU, urban prone, low-profile barricade top, etc) and in situations where you have bulky gear/armor that makes it hard to maintain a solid cheek weld. A FTS magnifier is an added bonus that enhances the capability, and it's easy to engage targets out beyond 200yds with exceptional accuracy (head shots are capable).

The magnified riflescope is very advantageous for more long range engagement, while still having close quarters capability, provided the scope has the proper features. It has limitations, but the specialized abilities give it a distinct advantage in certain situations.

For an ideal patrol-capable riflescope, here are my thoughts:
-First and foremost, daylight visible illumination is MANDATORY. Several scopes have yet to perfect the illumination to the point where it is visible in broad daylight, or when pointed at a very bright location like a light.
-True 1x capability is preferable. It makes a big difference with faster target acquisition and more effective capability at close range.
-Non-true 1x magnificaiton like 1.1x-1.25x is usable provided that the optical quality is good and the reticle/illumination is highly visible
-More than 1.25x is too much for effective and rapid use, and the distortion of sight picture when using binocular vision throws me off when using it for longer than a quick glance.
-Optical quality plays a huge part in an optic. Lower quality detracts from the usability of the optic. Optics like the Millet DMS were well-received by the Arfcom crowd, but the fisheye distortion and poor resolution made it a shit optic in my opinion.
-second focal plane reticles are fine for general use, and SFP allows the use of daylight visible red dot style reticles.
-I prefer a first focal plane reticle, as it is far more usable for long range engagement. FFP reticles are hard to illuminate sufficiently to be visible in very bright light. I have yet to try the US Optics SR-8C and their DFP technology, but with a standard FFP reticle I believe that Leupold has a great offering with the CMR-W.
-Be wary of compromising quality in order to get a scope. Buy once, cry once.
 
rob_s

rob_s

Member
AresGear_Jake said:
I understand; I'm light on funds myself right now.

Staying under $500 for an optic/mount package won't let you give it a fair shake. A quality mount alone is $100-$150, leaving you with $350-$400 for your primary optic. At that point, you're limited to the Walmart specials. Had you planned to keep the RDS/magnifier combo under $500 as well?


- Jake
Click to expand...

I agree with this.

The gun world is full of people that wanted to try item X, find out that quality X costs $Y, wish to spend less and so buy a sub-par example for $Y/Z (where Z>2), and the proclaim the concept of item X to be flawed.

Examples of this include 1911s, ARs, and variable power optics.
 
Grayman

Grayman

Established
Whoa Whoa Whoa lets not get the cart before the horse here...

Andy I sincerely appreciate the input! I know this will all be incredibly valuable when/if I decide to pursue this as my actual choice of optic. Right now I run RDS and really have nothing to complain about. I do however work in an AO where some magnification would be useful in certain specific situations. However it cannot come at a significant sacrifice in CQB performance.

I AM NOT looking for the end all be all 1-?x optic I am simply looking for a decent optic that will allow me to perform a battery of functional tests to determine the specific strengths and weaknesses of the 1-?x style optical platform. I learned a long time ago the merits of the buy once/cry once mantra; I am a believer.
 
Andy Beefcastle

Andy Beefcastle

Member
Grayman said:
I AM NOT looking for the end all be all 1-?x optic I am simply looking for a decent optic that will allow me to perform a battery of functional tests to determine the specific strengths and weaknesses of the 1-?x style optical platform. I learned a long time ago the merits of the buy once/cry once mantra; I am a believer.
Click to expand...
The problem is like what rob_s said, which is that a lower quality optic is going to skew the evaluation. Concepts like the lower price optics have the ability to get you into the game of a 1-_x scope, but they're not going to be an accurate representation of what that optics category can really do. If I were to make my decision about the efficacy of a 1-4x/5x/6x scope for patrol based on my 2000 model year Leupold Vari-X II 1-4x20 or a new Millet DMS 1-6x, I'd be pretty sure that I would consider it lacking and perhaps not ideal.

The optical quality is the key point, but overall construction, features and design make up a large crossection as well of what you will perceive. The high optical quality of the premium scopes far surpass those of lesser options, to the point where there is little comparison. A scope may have "true-1x" magnification, if the sight picture has distortion around the edges, a fisheye effect, poor resolution or other problems, that causes the eye to perceive the image differently than through a higher quality optic. This can result in slower acquisition of sight picture, slower engagement speeds at distance, and poor low light capability.

I understand what you're trying to do, so good luck to you. Understand that if you have better optics, your test is going to be more favorable for the scopes. Less quality will be less favorable. The RDS will generally be a "control", while the scope will be the "variable".
 
regdudedrtyjob

regdudedrtyjob

Regular Member
Ashdown said:
I was recently introduced to the 1-4x24 scope world, and with all the fantastic brand options out there in this class I am seeking opinions. Not on models per se, but do you think the scopes in this class could effectively replace the 1x RDS while offering more flexibility at extended ranges? Or do you think that the RDS could never be replaced for faster target acquisition? If you only had one carbine which one of the two optics would you choose? I appreciate any insight to those with any experience, thanks!
Click to expand...

My opinion after having my Vortex 1-4x24 PST for about a year. It is a good all around scope, but adds a bit of weight to the gun, isn't "daylight bright" in my opinion, and has a reticle that is too "busy." Honestly at this point, I am really considering going with an Aimpoint and practicing holdovers at range with that, or go the other way and spend even more money on the low power variable scope. I'm running a standard 16" barrel in my BCM factory upper, and I feel like if I sink more money into optics I should upgrade the barrel too.
 
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