Mrad vs Moa LPVO

#1
If this has already been covered I am sorry as I was not able to find any thread.

Mrad vs Moa on a LPVO
Does it matter?
How Much does it matter?

I understand if someone has been running One vs the other and it is an easier transition for them but as a brand new optic shooter will it matter as much at the distances that you would/ could engage with a 5.56 as long as you understand your sub-tensions on the reticle?

Any help is greatly appreciated!
 
#2
I shoot MOA optics because thats what i started with and own. However, i highly recommend going Mils if your just getting going. Last 2 precision classes i went to i was the only guy shooting MOA.

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#3
What Chip said. If you're on your own it doesn't matter so long as reticle and adjustment match (MOA/MOA or Mil/Mil). The type of shooting you're going to do will determine which way to go. There are far more tactical optics with MOA/MOA reticles but they still FAR fewer than good Mil/Mil scopes. And of course there's still Mil reticles with MOA adjustment which is just stupid (US mil did it because they failed to specify and our snipers slogged through with them because they had no choice).
S&B, Tangent Theta, Zero Compromise, Hensoldt, Kahles just to name a couple have few (if any) MOA offerings compared to Mil.
MOA will hinder your selection.

If you do Tactical/PRS stuff...you're going to be hearing people making calls in Mils.

If you're going to run certain competitions like F Class where the target is MOA based, people are going to run MOA.

Some will have you believe MOA is better because the adjustments are finer in 1/4 MOA vs 0.1 Mil. You're comparing 0.26" (because 1 MOA is actually 1.047"@100y) to 0.36" at 100y. Most Tac/PRS shooters would rather more elevation travel per rev than 1/10th of an inch finer adjustment. And if finer adjustment is what you require, 1/8 MOA and 0.05 Mil per click optics are a thing so that should not be a factor in MOA vs. Mil.

Seeing as how you're asking on P&S, the answer is most likely: Mil
 

ggammell

Established
Network Support I
#4
I shoot MOA optics because thats what i started with and own. However, i highly recommend going Mils if your just getting going. Last 2 precision classes i went to i was the only guy shooting MOA.

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In fairness, any instructor worth a $hit should be able to help you regardless of what measurement you’re using. Don’t worry about the 8 other guys in the class if they’re using something different.
 
#5
Thank you gentlemen, great insight.

The role would be on a patrol rifle with it mostly running 1X anyways. I figured it would be a moot point in this role due to the limitations of the gun and the 6x magnification. And most of these optics are set and left alone with no dialing after the zero.

As long as understand the sub tensions of the reticle I will know what I need to know to get good accurate hits at varying distances.

I figured MIL would be the go ahead due to most guys already running and understanding mil subtensions vs MOA. But I was sure if it would make a huge difference.

Thanks again for the replies it is truly appreciated!
 

Mike_IA

Regular Member
Network Support II
#6
To echo what everyone else is saying.

If you are in a police environment I would say go mil. Most police training is coming down from the military and some PRS that uses mils. That will help you communicate more effectively if you ever need to- “I see movement 5 mils to the left of the Bravo/Charlie corner.”

Also the wind formulas with mils are much easier- if you get sucked into the precision game.

As a first scope it really doesn’t matter but the market is moving to mils and if you are going to be working into a community you may as well start off on a solid footing with most everyone else.

Also there are tricks on second focal plane scopes that give you usable sub-tensions at magnification other than full power.
 

Wake27

Regular Member
#7
To echo what everyone else is saying.

If you are in a police environment I would say go mil. Most police training is coming down from the military and some PRS that uses mils. That will help you communicate more effectively if you ever need to- “I see movement 5 mils to the left of the Bravo/Charlie corner.”

Also the wind formulas with mils are much easier- if you get sucked into the precision game.

As a first scope it really doesn’t matter but the market is moving to mils and if you are going to be working into a community you may as well start off on a solid footing with most everyone else.

Also there are tricks on second focal plane scopes that give you usable sub-tensions at magnification other than full power.
I’m not disagreeing, but one thing I have noticed that I feel is worth mentioning - a lot of times when this comes up, it’s said the military is heavily reliant on using mils which is a slight oversimplification. Scout/snipers are, but the vast majority of the military is using ACOGs and Aimpoints which all use MOA. Again, I’m assuming those are the types of guys you’re talking about so it doesn’t change anything, but I’ve heard similar comments mentioned a few times recently.


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tylerw02

Regular Member
#8
To echo what everyone else is saying.

If you are in a police environment I would say go mil. Most police training is coming down from the military and some PRS that uses mils. That will help you communicate more effectively if you ever need to- “I see movement 5 mils to the left of the Bravo/Charlie corner.”

Also the wind formulas with mils are much easier- if you get sucked into the precision game.

As a first scope it really doesn’t matter but the market is moving to mils and if you are going to be working into a community you may as well start off on a solid footing with most everyone else.

Also there are tricks on second focal plane scopes that give you usable sub-tensions at magnification other than full power.
I’m not disagreeing, but one thing I have noticed that I feel is worth mentioning - a lot of times when this comes up, it’s said the military is heavily reliant on using mils which is a slight oversimplification. Scout/snipers are, but the vast majority of the military is using ACOGs and Aimpoints which all use MOA. Again, I’m assuming those are the types of guys you’re talking about so it doesn’t change anything, but I’ve heard similar comments mentioned a few times recently.


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Not exactly true. The ACOG is a BDC based reticle. Once it’s zeroed, minutes are never discussed again. Same with an Aimpoint.


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Wake27

Regular Member
#9
To echo what everyone else is saying.

If you are in a police environment I would say go mil. Most police training is coming down from the military and some PRS that uses mils. That will help you communicate more effectively if you ever need to- “I see movement 5 mils to the left of the Bravo/Charlie corner.”

Also the wind formulas with mils are much easier- if you get sucked into the precision game.

As a first scope it really doesn’t matter but the market is moving to mils and if you are going to be working into a community you may as well start off on a solid footing with most everyone else.

Also there are tricks on second focal plane scopes that give you usable sub-tensions at magnification other than full power.
I’m not disagreeing, but one thing I have noticed that I feel is worth mentioning - a lot of times when this comes up, it’s said the military is heavily reliant on using mils which is a slight oversimplification. Scout/snipers are, but the vast majority of the military is using ACOGs and Aimpoints which all use MOA. Again, I’m assuming those are the types of guys you’re talking about so it doesn’t change anything, but I’ve heard similar comments mentioned a few times recently.


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Not exactly true. The ACOG is a BDC based reticle. Once it’s zeroed, minutes are never discussed again. Same with an Aimpoint.


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Fair, I meant the zeroing process not anything relating to dialing or reticle themselves. My experience is fairly limited, but even in infantry units, almost everyone talks in clicks and boxes.


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#10
My apologies to the OP in my hasty, copy-and-paste MOA v. Mil explanation. While much of it is meant for long-range precision; much can be salvaged for LPVO.

I know zeroing is a major chore for some and a pure enigma for others (and for the military...a bit of both and then some), but I would be reluctant to make my optic adjustment choice on this task. "Clicks" are all well and good if everybody knows what they mean. I love watching guys with 1/2 or 1/4 MOA adjustment try to get on paper at 25y before establishing a 50 or 100y zero. Offsets, fractions and math oh my!!! Those "I think in inches" people fold faster than a GAP employee on meth.

Inside the standard operating range of a 1-6 LPVO, you probably won't be talking MOA, Mils or even "clicks". Most likely your reference holds will be relation to the target (Hold: Left edge; Hold 12 o'clock, Hold: left shoulder) and likely referencing whatever stadia is in the ballpark.

As much as I want to sniper/PR the shit out of everything, that's the reality I've seen with LPVO's and normal Patrol/Duty/Defensive carbine work inside 400m.
 

tylerw02

Regular Member
#11
Pointblank, you sound just like me, brother. And my 1-6x is in mils and I have holds in mild written on the gun out to 800.


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#12
In the context of LVPOs, I think reticle selection is probably more important than the measurements. There's a lot of BDC reticles, rather than dot/hash arrangements in the 1-6X scopes. you're probably going to be calling any holds as it relates to the target. With a 200 yard zero and most ammo, holding on the top edge of what you want to hit gets you to 300, so you're barely even worried about using the reticle until you get to 350-400 yards. @pointblank4445 said it best, most calls/holds are going to be target based rather than a true ballistic based solution.