N
nate89
Guest
Intro
I took my first class with the Massad Ayoob Group in 2012 (MAG40). I have since been back to the same class twice, once as a student, and once as a range officer. This year Mas was coming back to Utah to teach his level 2 class, MAG80. This is the longest class (as far as days) that I have taken (5 days), and there was a lot of material. I am trying to get away from talking about each individual drill or technique, and give more of an overview of the class in general. If I haven’t been specific enough on anything, or if you have any additional questions please ask. I am happy to discuss it in public or private. Here it goes!
Weather was just about perfect. Rarely did we see a cloud in the sky, and temperatures for the 5 days were a bit hot, but nothing excessive. There were a total of 17 students. Two were women (spouses of two other students). Age ranged from the youngest (me at 25) to over 60. We had one current LEO, and one or two people either going through POST or just finished and looking for an department currently. I didn’t enquire about military service, but I know for a fact a few were retired military. Most were non-LE or Mil. like me. Equipment varied GREATLY! I will get into this later on, but in both handguns and long guns, there was a wide range of quality (and along with that a wide range of ability to function).
Just like the first class, you will find that Mas is very conscious about safety. The range safety rules are very regimented and strictly enforced. For some they may seem even a bit overboard, but there were no safety violations for the duration of the class.
Mas explained at the beginning of the class the different way he approaches the level two class as opposed to the level one. MAG40 is about cramming in as much information as possible, and I can attest to that. Without getting too sidetracked, MAG40 is primarily about the classroom material. I came home with about 30-40 pages of notes. This class is much more focused on practical skills rather than legal material.
We began by introducing ourselves and then got right into weapons retention. This was one of the primary reasons I wanted to take this class. I have recently been focusing more on the non-shooting skills that I find valuable (first aid, weapons retention, communication, situational awareness, etc.), and this seemed like a good place to start. Throughout the whole week, we would to retention for an hour or two every day, and I got a chance to work with every other member of the class. This was very valuable, as we had some pretty big guys in class. It was good to see the techniques applied on someone with 3-4 inches and 75+ pounds on me. Range time began on day one with practicing drawing and reloading with one hand (done dry left and right handed), improving speed on the first shot, and recoil control. We would start with a slow pace and speed up while still maintaining control and keeping the shots in. We also got the long guns out and practiced transitions to the handgun. One thing about any of the MAG classes i’ve taken; the range time is pretty regimented.
Every day followed this same basic pattern. We would have time on retention, time in class with either videos or lectures, time with the handgun, and time with the long gun each day. A few other things we got into on the range were shooting from the ground, precision shots at 25 yards, shooting while moving, man-vs-man steel shoots, shooting from kneeling and other positions, and transitions.
As the class progressed, we started shooting against each other for money. Everyone would put in a dollar, and the winner took the pot. We shot a plate rack with 6 rounds in each magazine. If you missed, you got to reload on the clock. We also shot the plates as two man teams. Mas talked about shooting with something on the line, and holding yourself accountable.
Equipment:
I know I am preaching to the choir here, but please, bring equipment and ammo that work when you go to a class. Over the five days, we shot about 600 rounds of pistol ammo, and only 100 rounds of either shotgun or rifle ammo. I was amazed at how many problems I saw. Here is a quick summary:
An M&P with a 9mm conversion barrel would not extract consistently (surprise!). He ended up borrowing another M&P to finish the class with.
An XDm compact (surprise) was having feeding problems.
A DPMS (surprise) wouldn’t run with the steel-cased ammo that the student brought (and had never tested before the class!). Another special feature about this particular gun was the tendency of the gas block to walk forward under recoil and shut off the gas, turning it into a single shot.
I did see a factory Daniel Defense V7 fail to extract a round and caused an issue.
Shotguns were a whole different kettle of fish. A Mossberg 930 not only failed to feed all manner of different ammo, it also pulled the unique move of shearing the optic mount from the receiver under recoil, and sent a vortex sparc into the forehead of the one shooting it.
There were two other no-name auto shotguns that were having feeding issues as well.
There were three auto Benelli guns that were flawless, as well as the knights AR that I saw.
I was shooting a Sig 226 in 9mm, and a Remington 870. Both ran with no problems and didn’t get in the way of learning. Ammo for the shotgun was Winchester Ranger slugs, and Federal 00 buck with the Flitecontrol wad. Ammo for the Sig was my own reloads, but having shot about 6k of them through the gun, I have confidence in them, and they didn’t have any issues.
The final qualification for the class is the same as in the level one class, with the times cut in half. If starts with 6 rounds strong and weak hand at 4 yards in 4 seconds and ends at 15 yards with 18 round (6 each in three mags) in 45 seconds. Targets are either IDPA or USPSA (we used the IDPA ones this year) with the down zero or A zones used as the full points area. I will be working more on shooting at distance, and incorporating time pressure at distance more in the future, as that was what I struggled with.
As a general overview of the class, It taught me a lot, and exposed me to new techniques that I hadn’t really used before. The weapon retention was also new, and it is something I will be doing a lot of work on in the future. Just like any other class, you go and learn how to practice yourself to improve your skills. I also got a chance to interview Mas about police training (for my thesis I am working on), and he was very gracious with his time after class in the evening. As with any class, it is difficult to distill the experience down to a few pages, but hopefully I got the main things down. Once again feel free to ask for other specifics and i’ll be glad to expound more.
I took my first class with the Massad Ayoob Group in 2012 (MAG40). I have since been back to the same class twice, once as a student, and once as a range officer. This year Mas was coming back to Utah to teach his level 2 class, MAG80. This is the longest class (as far as days) that I have taken (5 days), and there was a lot of material. I am trying to get away from talking about each individual drill or technique, and give more of an overview of the class in general. If I haven’t been specific enough on anything, or if you have any additional questions please ask. I am happy to discuss it in public or private. Here it goes!
Weather was just about perfect. Rarely did we see a cloud in the sky, and temperatures for the 5 days were a bit hot, but nothing excessive. There were a total of 17 students. Two were women (spouses of two other students). Age ranged from the youngest (me at 25) to over 60. We had one current LEO, and one or two people either going through POST or just finished and looking for an department currently. I didn’t enquire about military service, but I know for a fact a few were retired military. Most were non-LE or Mil. like me. Equipment varied GREATLY! I will get into this later on, but in both handguns and long guns, there was a wide range of quality (and along with that a wide range of ability to function).
Just like the first class, you will find that Mas is very conscious about safety. The range safety rules are very regimented and strictly enforced. For some they may seem even a bit overboard, but there were no safety violations for the duration of the class.
Mas explained at the beginning of the class the different way he approaches the level two class as opposed to the level one. MAG40 is about cramming in as much information as possible, and I can attest to that. Without getting too sidetracked, MAG40 is primarily about the classroom material. I came home with about 30-40 pages of notes. This class is much more focused on practical skills rather than legal material.
We began by introducing ourselves and then got right into weapons retention. This was one of the primary reasons I wanted to take this class. I have recently been focusing more on the non-shooting skills that I find valuable (first aid, weapons retention, communication, situational awareness, etc.), and this seemed like a good place to start. Throughout the whole week, we would to retention for an hour or two every day, and I got a chance to work with every other member of the class. This was very valuable, as we had some pretty big guys in class. It was good to see the techniques applied on someone with 3-4 inches and 75+ pounds on me. Range time began on day one with practicing drawing and reloading with one hand (done dry left and right handed), improving speed on the first shot, and recoil control. We would start with a slow pace and speed up while still maintaining control and keeping the shots in. We also got the long guns out and practiced transitions to the handgun. One thing about any of the MAG classes i’ve taken; the range time is pretty regimented.
Every day followed this same basic pattern. We would have time on retention, time in class with either videos or lectures, time with the handgun, and time with the long gun each day. A few other things we got into on the range were shooting from the ground, precision shots at 25 yards, shooting while moving, man-vs-man steel shoots, shooting from kneeling and other positions, and transitions.
As the class progressed, we started shooting against each other for money. Everyone would put in a dollar, and the winner took the pot. We shot a plate rack with 6 rounds in each magazine. If you missed, you got to reload on the clock. We also shot the plates as two man teams. Mas talked about shooting with something on the line, and holding yourself accountable.
Equipment:
I know I am preaching to the choir here, but please, bring equipment and ammo that work when you go to a class. Over the five days, we shot about 600 rounds of pistol ammo, and only 100 rounds of either shotgun or rifle ammo. I was amazed at how many problems I saw. Here is a quick summary:
An M&P with a 9mm conversion barrel would not extract consistently (surprise!). He ended up borrowing another M&P to finish the class with.
An XDm compact (surprise) was having feeding problems.
A DPMS (surprise) wouldn’t run with the steel-cased ammo that the student brought (and had never tested before the class!). Another special feature about this particular gun was the tendency of the gas block to walk forward under recoil and shut off the gas, turning it into a single shot.
I did see a factory Daniel Defense V7 fail to extract a round and caused an issue.
Shotguns were a whole different kettle of fish. A Mossberg 930 not only failed to feed all manner of different ammo, it also pulled the unique move of shearing the optic mount from the receiver under recoil, and sent a vortex sparc into the forehead of the one shooting it.
There were two other no-name auto shotguns that were having feeding issues as well.
There were three auto Benelli guns that were flawless, as well as the knights AR that I saw.
I was shooting a Sig 226 in 9mm, and a Remington 870. Both ran with no problems and didn’t get in the way of learning. Ammo for the shotgun was Winchester Ranger slugs, and Federal 00 buck with the Flitecontrol wad. Ammo for the Sig was my own reloads, but having shot about 6k of them through the gun, I have confidence in them, and they didn’t have any issues.
The final qualification for the class is the same as in the level one class, with the times cut in half. If starts with 6 rounds strong and weak hand at 4 yards in 4 seconds and ends at 15 yards with 18 round (6 each in three mags) in 45 seconds. Targets are either IDPA or USPSA (we used the IDPA ones this year) with the down zero or A zones used as the full points area. I will be working more on shooting at distance, and incorporating time pressure at distance more in the future, as that was what I struggled with.
As a general overview of the class, It taught me a lot, and exposed me to new techniques that I hadn’t really used before. The weapon retention was also new, and it is something I will be doing a lot of work on in the future. Just like any other class, you go and learn how to practice yourself to improve your skills. I also got a chance to interview Mas about police training (for my thesis I am working on), and he was very gracious with his time after class in the evening. As with any class, it is difficult to distill the experience down to a few pages, but hopefully I got the main things down. Once again feel free to ask for other specifics and i’ll be glad to expound more.
