LE Qualifications Scores

[FenrirKildar]

Hope I put this in the right section if I did not please move.

I am curious to hear opinions from LE firearm trainers and use of force instructors. I originally worked for a department that encouraged officers to shoot the best score they could on qualifications. They used a smaller circle in a torso target for max points and you got less points for being in the torso head region and anything outside the lines of the torso you got zero points. They also required officers to pass a 50 round day qual and a 25 round night qualification. I switched from this department to another department and when I shot my first qualification I manage to do a 100%. Partly this was due not to any amazing skill on my part but they use a FBI Q Target and score max points within the bottle and you still got points if it was outside the bottle on paper.

This is frankly a easier qual due to the size of that target compared with what I shoot in classes like those put on by Alias Training or what I would shoot in IDPA or USPSA. I was lectured by one of the instructors that I should of thrown a round or two outside of the Q because it could be said in a court of law that I should of shot him in the leg or why did I miss if I dont miss in quals. The scores are logged only pass or fail and I asked how would they know my scores and he informed me that they could call him or another instructor as a witness to testify that I shot 100s or close to 100s.

My thing is by lying on quals basically or encouraging officers to basically fake qual scores arent you comprising your integrity in a court of law? Isnt the first thing my defense attorney is going to say is the qual does not have me moving, the target moving, and the target isnt shooting at me so it does not replicate a legit shooting scenario but merely a test of basic skill? Whats funny some officers and instructors disagreed with this instructors opinion.

So would the resource of so many instructors and I am sure they are some use of force instructors on here what are your thoughts? Apparently this kinda of thinking is more common in LE world than I would of thought.

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[Runcible]

I have heard such logic before, as far as the advocating of "throwing a round or two," but never with legitimacy or veracity.

Any personnel advocating for such, most especially in the context of "why didn't you shoot (to wound)" needs remedial counseling and training, especially in the context of lawful application of DPF. Instructors or others in a position of responsibility are demonstrating ignorance of the testimonial process and legal realities, and may need such remediation documented. This is intolerable shabbiness, especially to inculcate in another.

More commonly, this sort of logic chain is the alleged justification to shooting less well, but remains shabby and unworthy in professional conduct.

 

[nate89]

I have never heard of that idea before, but I don't see the advantage to it. One phrase from MAG-40 with Mas Ayoob that I really remember is the new acronym for CYA: Can you Articulate and Can you Authenticate? There will always be the chance that a prosecutor will bring up a bogus theory the feed to the jury. Your job is to be able to explain to them why you did what you did, and why that was the best course of action. I think it is well-established that shooting for the gun in the hand or shooting to wound (leg, arm, etc.) is not an effective or reliable course of action, and you should be able to explain why that is the case.

 

[voodoo_man]

I've seen this at my dept's range.

I point and laugh at these people since our qual scores do not matter when you shoot someone unless they are so bad that you shouldn't have a firearm, but you wouldn't if they were.

 

[JekPokins]

I too have heard that "suggestion" floating around the firing line, but I don't buy it one bit. It is usually accompanied by a statement along the lines of "you are never going to be perfect in a shoot, so you don't want to be perfect on a qual". As a cadre, we are pretty hard on cheating of any kind, such as the guys that like to save half of thier rounds from the 25 yard line for somewhere they may actually be able to hit from. The Alabama POSTC qual, like most other basic quals I know of, hardly mimics a real shooting and like you said is much more akin to a measure of your basic pistol marksmanship abilities.

I would recommend that you keep rocking 100's, document your own numerical scores and training, and generally refrain from taking advice from those goons... I would hate to be the one testing their "theories" in federal court.

 

[Wil]

Hey buddy!
Seeing as we had a pretty long phone convo over this, you know my feelings! This is something the "Good Idea Fairy" came up with! Total crap... Keep shooting as well as I know you do, and you'll be good! This ranks right up there with the guys who scream " If I can't count each individual round, you don't get credit for it!" or the "if you can shoot that well you can shoot them on the paper so I can count them all" crowd...

 

[FenrirKildar]

Oh I know Will. Honestly I posted this to see how many people encounter this. Personally at the previous department the opinion shared by the instructors and some of the officers were if you were claiming thats what you were doing most of the people who claim that cant shoot 100s even if they tried. Again though its an easy qual its not a true test of skills like some of the drills/quals/tests I had to shoot in some classes that were a much more humbling experience and a true evaluation of what I needed to work on. They are some officers I spoke with that think the percentage should be raised to like 80%. I just never encounter this much crap for shooting well. I was told by one instructor to spread my group size out. Though just a disclaimer I am not some super shooter of any type they are plenty of things I still need to work on and perfect. Shooting on FBI Q targets are awful as when I went back to smaller scoring areas for classes or competition I really had to slow down a bit and focus.

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[JekPokins]

I like to shoot a qual on the Reduced size Q's on my own time... That is much more of a "test" than running the standard targets. We typically use the small Q's pretty exclusively for tac training as well.

 

[Curt]

I have heard this from guys either trying to justify their low scores or just being obtuse "roll call lawyers". If you break down the reason you shoot someone, to protect yourself or some other person, the whole idea of "gaming" the aftermath defeats the "here and now" reason we shoot. We need to be as effective as possible for in that moment we are protecting someone. Lazy cops make me ill.

 

[CFM_47]

The logic behind "throwing a shot or two" is invalid. Shooting perfect scores on paper during a stress-free qualification has no correlation to a real world officer-involved shooting. Ranges quals are controlled environments. In an OIS your heart rate/breathing/etc. will likely be jacked up. The suspect will probably be moving. You will probably be moving. It might be dark or low-light. You will probably also be scared for your life or the life of someone else. There are a litany of factors that one will likely have to contend with during a real world OIS that just are not present in a qual or training, for that matter. Articulate these facts in your use of force report.

 

[theWRECKLESSone]

Never been in an OIS so I guess you could say this is straying out of my lane. Gunfights, from what I have seen are a cluster fuck for the most part. They are dirty, mean and downright stressful. As cops, we are expected to keep cool, calm and collected in the most shitty of situations. We are expected to process the stress and still do our job. The last thing I want to think about in a gun fight is, my gunfighting skills. I shouldn't be thinking hit the X or should have thrown that round in the qual, "what if I miss?" I want to use all of my brain power to be able to keep my head in the fight, process the information, deal with the aspects I have no control over and keep fighting. So why not perfect, or at least try to perfect one of the things I can control while there is no stress? Keep doing what you're doing. Those guys are the slugs on the road and have no problem with the minimum qual scores. The same ones who don't shoot on their own time think the minimum will save them in a gun fight. You know the saying, "excuses are like assholes..."

 

[RickJames]

We have recently gone to a "pass/fail" qualification, where an instructor will grade your target as usual, but only Pass or Fail is recorded, not your % score. One of our state agencies ran into the "if you could shoot 100%, why didn't you shoot the gun out of his hand" bullshit. Thus, at least theoretically, reading Pass on dept records negates any questions regarding actual number scores. As far as OIS...muscle memory, training, muscle memory, training, front sight, muscle memory. The rest is how you perceive the events unfolding before you, and how you apply training. We have attempted to increase the level of stress on the range during qualification (sim rounds, 3-gun style qual courses, etc), but it is no where near the real thing. My OIS didn't last long at all, and to attempt to recreate the scenario, or even attempt to induce that amount of stress on the range, could not be done safely. And as far as throwing rounds to intentionally lower scores...smiley face head shots.

 

[JRT6]

Qual courses are an administrative function and nothing more. Designed to get the LCD to pass with as little inconvenience as possible. It's not the score on the course that speaks of the shooter but rather the way they shot it. But then I don't know how many times over the years I heard so and so was a marksman or a really good shooter just to find they and everyone watching them were at the unconscious incompetent stage.

I'm just so jaded when it comes to cops firearms performance. Much more so with the pathetic performances and skills of so called instructors. Instructors who take cops that went to a squared away shooting course and come back much improved just to have them told to go back the old way by their agency instructor. Because that old instructor doesn't know how to teach the current way or is too insecure. Even with good instructors how can they teach when the average department shoots once a year for 50 rds.

BTW I can make a perfect score on the model Ohio qual (agencies can use a harder course as long as it's approved but not an easier one) shooting the whole thing support hand only.

 

[JRT6]

I was running a security officer requal recently for a US government installation security force. These guys make more money than a lot of cops and have to qual at FLETC but also with the state of Ohio for when they commute between installations. A couple guys were clearly going to fail and I changed their grip and had them shoot a few practice runs with surprisingly good results. But then egos started to take over and they insisted on shooting their old way which resulted in a failure. "Aw man can't you help me out I'm good enough for FLETC?" I did help you out and I'm not getting my state license suspended. See you at the twenty hour course you now have to take.