Matt Levi
November 25 at 11:29pm
We had a discussion on Cold Weather fighting/duty rifles. Now, Jungle or High Humidity.
SOG had CAR-15/XM177's. What would you change?
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You, Chris Taylor, Chad Halvorson, Matt Levi and 17 others like this.
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Roland Deschaintull Jungle gun, lightweight M4 with plastic heat shields no rails, car 15 butt stock, tritium FSP, Folding rear sight, Surefire or D60 drums.
Like · Reply · 9 · November 25 at 11:39pm
Hide 33 Replies
Phil Axelrod No white light? That Canadian FSP rail section and a SF scout would be a good addition, but I otherwise agree fully.
Like · Reply · November 26 at 12:32am
Chad Mercer Google Wait a Minute vines.
Like · Reply · 4 · November 26 at 9:01am
Phil Axelrod I've trained in some fairly dense forest (certainly not triple canopy jungle, but dense). There are clearings, game trails, paths, and roads. Often unexpectedly. I'd still like to because to see/kill things across them. A low profile rail section and QD flashlight mount would not make this any less viable in thick shit.
Like · Reply · November 26 at 9:09am
Chad Mercer You are outta your depth.
Like · Reply · November 26 at 9:10am
Chad Mercer No offense
Like · Reply · November 26 at 9:14am
Phil Axelrod No, I'm a professional with an opinion, asking another professional for his opinion, and respectfully disagreeing based on admittedly limited experience.
I am not "out of my depth," I am just not super secret jungle recce.
Like · Reply · November 26 at 9:16am
Roland Deschaintull Phil I'm talking about shit where a patrol that chooses to walk at night will make it about 350 meters in 8 hours. And the daylight planning factor was about 500-600M per hour.
I've done night ambushes where we had to run commo wire "hand rails" from the ORP to the kill zone, set in before nightfall and then after activating the ambush and clearing the kill zone, we had to follow the hand line back to the ORP with the last guy rolling up the commo wire. Distance from ORP to the kill zone? 40-50 meters. Depart ORP after ambush? Nope too dark. Patrol base in the ORP 40 meters away from 6 "dead bodies" on a trail because it's night time and you can't move.
Every single problem looks different in the jungle.
Like · Reply · 8 · November 26 at 9:22am · Edited
Phil Axelrod And there is additional information. Thank you.
Like · Reply · 1 · November 26 at 9:21am
Chad Mercer When you have no first hand experience, you are in fact, "out of your depth...of experience."
Like · Reply · November 26 at 9:25am
Phil Axelrod And that precludes me from asking questions and forming thoughts how?
This is a professional forum. Shouting down questions and opinions while providing nothing of value is the antithesis of why this group was formed. "Every fighting rifle a should have white light and iron sights" is burned into the back of my skull. When this is deviated from by a man who certainly knows what he is doing, I ask questions. Still having a preference for an optional tool doesn't make me any less of a professional.
Like · Reply · November 26 at 9:30am
Chad Mercer It procludes you from nothing. Ask away...
Just realize that my depth statement was in response to this assertion.
" I've trained in some fairly dense forest (certainly not triple canopy jungle, but dense).... A low profile rail section and QD flashlight mount would not make this any less viable in thick shit."
Apples to Oranges experience.
Like · Reply · November 26 at 9:38am
Thomas Hope I respectfully disagree with you Roland. Rail covers are a must,bit I'm not going to sacrifice my optics and laser. We have the capability to reduce snags. Trust me, I know.
Like · Reply · November 26 at 9:53am
Roland Deschaintull What good is a laser going to do you if you don't have nods? If you do have them they are covered in muck and leaves and bark and mud all over the lenses. If you wear a helmet to carry these nods you fucking die of heat stroke in less than two hours, so you have to have a skull crusher which leaves your head exposed to the bugs to suck you dry, then of course there is the fogging of the lenses and total lack of ambient light under the canopy to even see, so the only way the nods work is active IR, plus you can't see the snakes and they will fucking kill you!
Look you are a white boy and when you go to Thailand, or Colombia, of Malaysia, Brunei, etc etc etc and their SOF people refuse to go out at night in the jungle. That's called a clue.
This isn't Roland is old as fuck as has not evolved thread..... we conduct jungle training to this day and this is the gear we are using TODAY in the jungle, this is not some throw back "well back in jungle school in the 90's they taught us this shit"
Like · Reply · 6 · November 26 at 10:01am
Thomas Hope Not saying you haven't. We ran scull crusher under boonies or bandannas loosely worn. As far as lasers, why am I going to sacrifice that capability? Even in the jungle. You Know as well as I do most engagements are very short range. Generally ambushes. By the way Roland, please know that I'm not saying you are wrong, but that there is no reason to sacrifice capabilities. There are ways to mitigate snags and other problems.
Like · Reply · November 26 at 10:08am · Edited
Roland Deschaintull How can you be ambushed at night if you are airing your feet out in your hammock?
There is a difference between infiltrating the jungle to conduct a raid at night on a camp, and conducting continuous operations.
Like · Reply · November 26 at 10:09am
Chad Mercer I ran NODs out of a pouch in most places, only pulled them out when I needed them for SA or Observation.
Roland I get the weight concerns, but what about a mini can? I sure as shit wouldnt be wearing peltors.
We had a couple oooold colts with those old knights cans.
Like · Reply · 1 · November 26 at 10:16am
Roland Deschaintull I could get on board with suppressor usage... (UGH, snag hazard) but the fucking GPMG and claymores ain't got no cans.....
Like · Reply · 2 · November 26 at 10:25am
Thomas Hope I m aware of that. We had an SOP of moving at dawn or dusk to allow proper Soldier rest and to mitigate detection by sight or sound. In both India and Thailand thoser were the busiest times. We also used camoform tape to streamline and reduce snags on the NODS. Forgot to mention earlier.
Like · Reply · November 26 at 10:28am
Roland Deschaintull Removing the right angles is part of it.
Like · Reply · November 26 at 10:29am
Thomas Hope That is the idea exactly. That combine with removing obtuse gaps and edges. What you end up with is a multicam mutant unicorn horn hanging over the non dominant eye. I ran an FBI earpiece hooked to a handmic, or one one of the older non earcupped racal headsets.
Like · Reply · November 26 at 10:32am
Roland Deschaintull Commo...ugh. we run radios waterproofed in the ruck until we needed them (ORP), then I used a racal.
Like · Reply · November 26 at 10:37am
Thomas Hope I get it. We had a huge problem with hand and arm signals with thick undergrowth. Fuck it. Use the radios.
Like · Reply · November 26 at 10:38am
T.Walker Peterson Only talked on radio to call higher. Didn't talk other than that if we didn't have to. A M4 without a rail would be nice. Those rails grab every vine. I tried not to move at night. Nighttime in the jungle is stupid to move in.
Like · Reply · 1 · November 26 at 11:46am
Thomas Hope You eliminate the snags with camo form tape, and rail covers. Radios were only used with earpieces or headsets. ASIPS for higher, MBITRS for lateral comms.
Like · Reply · November 26 at 12:01pm
T.Walker Peterson If you work long enough with your team not much need for lateral comms somehow we did it before the age of everyone needs a radio. Having been in both African and South American jungles I was just speaking from my point of view. Camoform works just wondering how long it would be before it started to rot.
Like · Reply · 1 · November 26 at 12:05pm
Thomas Hope I got about 4-6 months without rotting. I actually replace it based on fading. You are right, but with a 30-70 meter spread between squads, along with thick undergrowth, that is where the need arises. I am is d to southeast Asian and Pacific island jungles.
Like · Reply · November 26 at 12:08pm · Edited
Matt James How did you mitigate the snag hazards of IMBTR/ASIP antennae's? At what point does shorter antennae limit your transmission range? I'm assuming SatCom is a no go.
*Not a jungle guy, just deserts. Jungles can ETADIK.
Like · Reply · 1 · November 26 at 12:30pm
Matt Wicks Jungle comm should be a different thread.
Like · Reply · 1 · November 26 at 12:40pm
Thomas Hope It should
Like · Reply · November 26 at 12:46pm
Jay Nguyen What would your LBE be? Chest rig or h harness with pistol belt? I'm assuming you'd be loaded with 200+ rds just mag dumping.
Like · Reply · 20 hrs
Thomas Hope Not mag dumping. I use a TT split mav. Triple mag pouches radio pouch. Dumper and ifake.
Like · Reply · 1 · 20 hrs
Roland Deschaintull I run 300 rounds minimum for patrolling. Alice LBE or a BFG belt minus, but I also have a split front MAV that I will wear over a slick PC for DA shit that happens to be in the jungle.
Like · Reply · 2 · 19 hrs
Thomas Hope I generally have a second Combat load in the ruck for extended ops. I have no live experience, although I do have extensive training in jungle warfare.
Like · Reply · 1 · 19 hrs
Phil Axelrod No white light? That Canadian FSP rail section and a SF scout would be a good addition, but I otherwise agree fully.
Like · Reply · November 26 at 12:32am
Chad Mercer Google Wait a Minute vines.
Like · Reply · 4 · November 26 at 9:01am
Phil Axelrod I've trained in some fairly dense forest (certainly not triple canopy jungle, but dense). There are clearings, game trails, paths, and roads. Often unexpectedly. I'd still like to because to see/kill things across them. A low profile rail section and QD flashlight mount would not make this any less viable in thick shit.
Like · Reply · November 26 at 9:09am
Chad Mercer You are outta your depth.
Like · Reply · November 26 at 9:10am
Chad Mercer No offense
Like · Reply · November 26 at 9:14am
Phil Axelrod No, I'm a professional with an opinion, asking another professional for his opinion, and respectfully disagreeing based on admittedly limited experience.
I am not "out of my depth," I am just not super secret jungle recce.
Like · Reply · November 26 at 9:16am
Roland Deschaintull Phil I'm talking about shit where a patrol that chooses to walk at night will make it about 350 meters in 8 hours. And the daylight planning factor was about 500-600M per hour.
I've done night ambushes where we had to run commo wire "hand rails" from the ORP to the kill zone, set in before nightfall and then after activating the ambush and clearing the kill zone, we had to follow the hand line back to the ORP with the last guy rolling up the commo wire. Distance from ORP to the kill zone? 40-50 meters. Depart ORP after ambush? Nope too dark. Patrol base in the ORP 40 meters away from 6 "dead bodies" on a trail because it's night time and you can't move.
Every single problem looks different in the jungle.
Like · Reply · 8 · November 26 at 9:22am · Edited
Phil Axelrod And there is additional information. Thank you.
Like · Reply · 1 · November 26 at 9:21am
Chad Mercer When you have no first hand experience, you are in fact, "out of your depth...of experience."
Like · Reply · November 26 at 9:25am
Phil Axelrod And that precludes me from asking questions and forming thoughts how?
This is a professional forum. Shouting down questions and opinions while providing nothing of value is the antithesis of why this group was formed. "Every fighting rifle a should have white light and iron sights" is burned into the back of my skull. When this is deviated from by a man who certainly knows what he is doing, I ask questions. Still having a preference for an optional tool doesn't make me any less of a professional.
Like · Reply · November 26 at 9:30am
Chad Mercer It procludes you from nothing. Ask away...
Just realize that my depth statement was in response to this assertion.
" I've trained in some fairly dense forest (certainly not triple canopy jungle, but dense).... A low profile rail section and QD flashlight mount would not make this any less viable in thick shit."
Apples to Oranges experience.
Like · Reply · November 26 at 9:38am
Thomas Hope I respectfully disagree with you Roland. Rail covers are a must,bit I'm not going to sacrifice my optics and laser. We have the capability to reduce snags. Trust me, I know.
Like · Reply · November 26 at 9:53am
Roland Deschaintull What good is a laser going to do you if you don't have nods? If you do have them they are covered in muck and leaves and bark and mud all over the lenses. If you wear a helmet to carry these nods you fucking die of heat stroke in less than two hours, so you have to have a skull crusher which leaves your head exposed to the bugs to suck you dry, then of course there is the fogging of the lenses and total lack of ambient light under the canopy to even see, so the only way the nods work is active IR, plus you can't see the snakes and they will fucking kill you!
Look you are a white boy and when you go to Thailand, or Colombia, of Malaysia, Brunei, etc etc etc and their SOF people refuse to go out at night in the jungle. That's called a clue.
This isn't Roland is old as fuck as has not evolved thread..... we conduct jungle training to this day and this is the gear we are using TODAY in the jungle, this is not some throw back "well back in jungle school in the 90's they taught us this shit"
Like · Reply · 6 · November 26 at 10:01am
Thomas Hope Not saying you haven't. We ran scull crusher under boonies or bandannas loosely worn. As far as lasers, why am I going to sacrifice that capability? Even in the jungle. You Know as well as I do most engagements are very short range. Generally ambushes. By the way Roland, please know that I'm not saying you are wrong, but that there is no reason to sacrifice capabilities. There are ways to mitigate snags and other problems.
Like · Reply · November 26 at 10:08am · Edited
Roland Deschaintull How can you be ambushed at night if you are airing your feet out in your hammock?
There is a difference between infiltrating the jungle to conduct a raid at night on a camp, and conducting continuous operations.
Like · Reply · November 26 at 10:09am
Chad Mercer I ran NODs out of a pouch in most places, only pulled them out when I needed them for SA or Observation.
Roland I get the weight concerns, but what about a mini can? I sure as shit wouldnt be wearing peltors.
We had a couple oooold colts with those old knights cans.
Like · Reply · 1 · November 26 at 10:16am
Roland Deschaintull I could get on board with suppressor usage... (UGH, snag hazard) but the fucking GPMG and claymores ain't got no cans.....
Like · Reply · 2 · November 26 at 10:25am
Thomas Hope I m aware of that. We had an SOP of moving at dawn or dusk to allow proper Soldier rest and to mitigate detection by sight or sound. In both India and Thailand thoser were the busiest times. We also used camoform tape to streamline and reduce snags on the NODS. Forgot to mention earlier.
Like · Reply · November 26 at 10:28am
Roland Deschaintull Removing the right angles is part of it.
Like · Reply · November 26 at 10:29am
Thomas Hope That is the idea exactly. That combine with removing obtuse gaps and edges. What you end up with is a multicam mutant unicorn horn hanging over the non dominant eye. I ran an FBI earpiece hooked to a handmic, or one one of the older non earcupped racal headsets.
Like · Reply · November 26 at 10:32am
Roland Deschaintull Commo...ugh. we run radios waterproofed in the ruck until we needed them (ORP), then I used a racal.
Like · Reply · November 26 at 10:37am
Thomas Hope I get it. We had a huge problem with hand and arm signals with thick undergrowth. Fuck it. Use the radios.
Like · Reply · November 26 at 10:38am
T.Walker Peterson Only talked on radio to call higher. Didn't talk other than that if we didn't have to. A M4 without a rail would be nice. Those rails grab every vine. I tried not to move at night. Nighttime in the jungle is stupid to move in.
Like · Reply · 1 · November 26 at 11:46am
Thomas Hope You eliminate the snags with camo form tape, and rail covers. Radios were only used with earpieces or headsets. ASIPS for higher, MBITRS for lateral comms.
Like · Reply · November 26 at 12:01pm
T.Walker Peterson If you work long enough with your team not much need for lateral comms somehow we did it before the age of everyone needs a radio. Having been in both African and South American jungles I was just speaking from my point of view. Camoform works just wondering how long it would be before it started to rot.
Like · Reply · 1 · November 26 at 12:05pm
Thomas Hope I got about 4-6 months without rotting. I actually replace it based on fading. You are right, but with a 30-70 meter spread between squads, along with thick undergrowth, that is where the need arises. I am is d to southeast Asian and Pacific island jungles.
Like · Reply · November 26 at 12:08pm · Edited
Matt James How did you mitigate the snag hazards of IMBTR/ASIP antennae's? At what point does shorter antennae limit your transmission range? I'm assuming SatCom is a no go.
*Not a jungle guy, just deserts. Jungles can ETADIK.
Like · Reply · 1 · November 26 at 12:30pm
Matt Wicks Jungle comm should be a different thread.
Like · Reply · 1 · November 26 at 12:40pm
Thomas Hope It should
Like · Reply · November 26 at 12:46pm
Jay Nguyen What would your LBE be? Chest rig or h harness with pistol belt? I'm assuming you'd be loaded with 200+ rds just mag dumping.
Like · Reply · 20 hrs
Thomas Hope Not mag dumping. I use a TT split mav. Triple mag pouches radio pouch. Dumper and ifake.
Like · Reply · 1 · 20 hrs
Roland Deschaintull I run 300 rounds minimum for patrolling. Alice LBE or a BFG belt minus, but I also have a split front MAV that I will wear over a slick PC for DA shit that happens to be in the jungle.
Like · Reply · 2 · 19 hrs
Thomas Hope I generally have a second Combat load in the ruck for extended ops. I have no live experience, although I do have extensive training in jungle warfare.
Like · Reply · 1 · 19 hrs
Justin Waalkes Still think the "cut-down" stoner was a good idea back then. Nowadays, I'd pick a lightweight M4 as well with a drum (haven't ran the Surefire's yet).
Like · Reply · November 25 at 11:43pm
Frank Woods Well if they run fine if kept wet, the standard (modernized) AR platform weapons ought to do fine in those settings.
Otherwise... 416, SCAR, etc? I'm having trouble thinking why whatever we have now wouldn't work in a jungle setting.
From what I'm told, what really separates jungle from urban or desert is the gear used more so then the weapons. Less focus on armor, more on lightweight LBE that's more conducive to breathability and won't weigh you down or cause you to sweat your balls off in the humidity.
Kevin, we've talked this over a bunch as far as gear went. How do you think the stuff in today's armories would fare?
Like · Reply · 4 · November 25 at 11:44pm
Roland Deschaintull My jungle gun.
Like · Reply · 11 · November 25 at 11:46pm
Hide 18 Replies
Matt Wicks No optic?
Like · Reply · November 25 at 11:46pm
Frank Woods Why toss the last decade's worth of platform innovation for something more retro? You really think the plastic handguards + A2 FSB will do a better job than an M-LOK rail?
Like · Reply · 1 · November 25 at 11:47pm
Frank Woods Matt, take the humidity/moisture + the electronics into consideration.
Like · Reply · November 25 at 11:48pm
Roland Deschaintull Plastic hand guards contain two heat shields and unlike every rail on the market today, these heat shields were constructed to protect your hands when the gun heats up.... like when you fire 300 rounds on rapid semi and full auto alternating.
Like · Reply · 9 · November 25 at 11:52pm
Joshua Jedidiah How about this + robar NP3+ everything?? grin emoticon
Like · Reply · 1 · November 25 at 11:56pm · Edited
Frank Woods Is that a concern with the rails on the market today? Cause almost everything has rails now, especially monolithic uppers. I'm not being sarcastic at all, I'm just trying to make better sense of what you're suggesting.
Like · Reply · November 25 at 11:57pm
Drew Yersin Frank Woods Id be interested to see the benefits of the heat shield vs the heat absorbing properties of Al and the increased airflow of a modern hand guard.
Like · Reply · 2 · November 26 at 12:17am
Frank Woods You and me both.
Like · Reply · 1 · November 26 at 12:22am
Roland Deschaintull Not even close. There is no comparison. Heat shields win everytime and twice on Sunday.
People don't realize their light weight skinny rails are shit for heat protection because they don't heat their guns up and when they do they are wearing gloves.
In the jungle you cannot see your enemy. Volume of fire is king. All of the lessons from Nam that we forced two generations of soldiers to unlearn because they didn't apply in the desert (aim more shoot less, stop fucking carrying 200+ rounds of ammo, etc) apply when you step foot back into the bush. When it's on, it's fucking mag dump after mag dump into the leaves right in front of your face. I've fired car-15's and M4's to cook off on several occasions during immediate action drills.
PLUS even if rails did work as good (no fucking way) they are designed to hold stuff and you ain't gonna have stuff in the jungle every vine on the planet will get between your light and rail, tape switches will be ripped off guns, etc. Your rifle takes a fucking beating, as does your body and your gear.
I would keep SF light in my ruck if we were going to do night ambushes and I would attach it to my barrel using a legacy barrel mount in the objective rally point.
The white light is used to search the dead in the kill zone. It came off my barrel as soon as we were back in the ORP.
I don't mean to sound over dramatic but if you have never trained in no shit jungle, trying to describe fighting in it to you is like me trying to describe the color blue to a blind man, my words simply can't do it justice.
Unlike · Reply · 16 · November 26 at 1:48am
Drew Yersin fair enough, i totally believe what you say and the reasons for it. I was thinking about objective numbers to assign. As always thanks for being willing to share it is appreciated
Like · Reply · 1 · November 26 at 1:51am
Zachary Reed Drew Yersin Compared to metals, air is a very poor place to dump heat. By and large, metals have three to four orders of magnitude larger values of thermal conductivity. Hence the use of heat sinks with large surface areas on electronic components that need to be air cooled. The advantage of the poly + Al handguards is that it simply puts more mass in the way prior to the heat hitting the hands.
Like · Reply · 4 · November 26 at 2:25am · Edited
Josh Bos Roland, why the folding rear sight instead of a static one?
Like · Reply · 1 · November 26 at 8:16am
Roland Deschaintull Snag hazard unless you are talking carry handle. Removable carry handle it more weight. That's why the car butt stock over other designs as well. Not gonna go full pencil barrel because of heat and cookoff, but a carry handle upper receiver would be better than a flat top. It would cut even more weight. My car 15 was 5.9lbs unloaded.
Like · Reply · 4 · November 26 at 9:07am
Justin Amato Having spent some time in triple canopy jungle in the lands far south, I cannot find anything in what Roland put out that I disagree with.
Like · Reply · November 26 at 9:37am
Chad Mercer I would add some tape, to the hanguards (but that would be a continuing action due to degradation).
That config with QPQ on all the steel would be just about perfect.
Like · Reply · 1 · November 26 at 9:44am
Eric Kozowski Roland Deschaintull How about something like the LMT fixed rear sight? http://www.lmtstore.com/.../tactical-adjustable-rear...
View attachment 857
Like · Reply · November 26 at 10:02am
Roland Deschaintull 90 degree angle..... snag hazard.
If you step into a clearing or the observation opens up, you can flip up your rear. If it's thick as fuck and shit kicks off its full auto or rapid semi auto mag dumps anyway so the rear sight is of little use and can be popped up to better reference your vertical shot placement when you get a chance.
Like · Reply · 2 · November 26 at 10:07am
Eric Kozowski Roland Deschaintull Copy
Like · Reply · November 26 at 10:07am
Matt Wicks No optic?
Like · Reply · November 25 at 11:46pm
Frank Woods Why toss the last decade's worth of platform innovation for something more retro? You really think the plastic handguards + A2 FSB will do a better job than an M-LOK rail?
Like · Reply · 1 · November 25 at 11:47pm
Frank Woods Matt, take the humidity/moisture + the electronics into consideration.
Like · Reply · November 25 at 11:48pm
Roland Deschaintull Plastic hand guards contain two heat shields and unlike every rail on the market today, these heat shields were constructed to protect your hands when the gun heats up.... like when you fire 300 rounds on rapid semi and full auto alternating.
Like · Reply · 9 · November 25 at 11:52pm
Joshua Jedidiah How about this + robar NP3+ everything?? grin emoticon
Like · Reply · 1 · November 25 at 11:56pm · Edited
Frank Woods Is that a concern with the rails on the market today? Cause almost everything has rails now, especially monolithic uppers. I'm not being sarcastic at all, I'm just trying to make better sense of what you're suggesting.
Like · Reply · November 25 at 11:57pm
Drew Yersin Frank Woods Id be interested to see the benefits of the heat shield vs the heat absorbing properties of Al and the increased airflow of a modern hand guard.
Like · Reply · 2 · November 26 at 12:17am
Frank Woods You and me both.
Like · Reply · 1 · November 26 at 12:22am
Roland Deschaintull Not even close. There is no comparison. Heat shields win everytime and twice on Sunday.
People don't realize their light weight skinny rails are shit for heat protection because they don't heat their guns up and when they do they are wearing gloves.
In the jungle you cannot see your enemy. Volume of fire is king. All of the lessons from Nam that we forced two generations of soldiers to unlearn because they didn't apply in the desert (aim more shoot less, stop fucking carrying 200+ rounds of ammo, etc) apply when you step foot back into the bush. When it's on, it's fucking mag dump after mag dump into the leaves right in front of your face. I've fired car-15's and M4's to cook off on several occasions during immediate action drills.
PLUS even if rails did work as good (no fucking way) they are designed to hold stuff and you ain't gonna have stuff in the jungle every vine on the planet will get between your light and rail, tape switches will be ripped off guns, etc. Your rifle takes a fucking beating, as does your body and your gear.
I would keep SF light in my ruck if we were going to do night ambushes and I would attach it to my barrel using a legacy barrel mount in the objective rally point.
The white light is used to search the dead in the kill zone. It came off my barrel as soon as we were back in the ORP.
I don't mean to sound over dramatic but if you have never trained in no shit jungle, trying to describe fighting in it to you is like me trying to describe the color blue to a blind man, my words simply can't do it justice.
Unlike · Reply · 16 · November 26 at 1:48am
Drew Yersin fair enough, i totally believe what you say and the reasons for it. I was thinking about objective numbers to assign. As always thanks for being willing to share it is appreciated
Like · Reply · 1 · November 26 at 1:51am
Zachary Reed Drew Yersin Compared to metals, air is a very poor place to dump heat. By and large, metals have three to four orders of magnitude larger values of thermal conductivity. Hence the use of heat sinks with large surface areas on electronic components that need to be air cooled. The advantage of the poly + Al handguards is that it simply puts more mass in the way prior to the heat hitting the hands.
Like · Reply · 4 · November 26 at 2:25am · Edited
Josh Bos Roland, why the folding rear sight instead of a static one?
Like · Reply · 1 · November 26 at 8:16am
Roland Deschaintull Snag hazard unless you are talking carry handle. Removable carry handle it more weight. That's why the car butt stock over other designs as well. Not gonna go full pencil barrel because of heat and cookoff, but a carry handle upper receiver would be better than a flat top. It would cut even more weight. My car 15 was 5.9lbs unloaded.
Like · Reply · 4 · November 26 at 9:07am
Justin Amato Having spent some time in triple canopy jungle in the lands far south, I cannot find anything in what Roland put out that I disagree with.
Like · Reply · November 26 at 9:37am
Chad Mercer I would add some tape, to the hanguards (but that would be a continuing action due to degradation).
That config with QPQ on all the steel would be just about perfect.
Like · Reply · 1 · November 26 at 9:44am
Eric Kozowski Roland Deschaintull How about something like the LMT fixed rear sight? http://www.lmtstore.com/.../tactical-adjustable-rear...
View attachment 857
Like · Reply · November 26 at 10:02am
Roland Deschaintull 90 degree angle..... snag hazard.
If you step into a clearing or the observation opens up, you can flip up your rear. If it's thick as fuck and shit kicks off its full auto or rapid semi auto mag dumps anyway so the rear sight is of little use and can be popped up to better reference your vertical shot placement when you get a chance.
Like · Reply · 2 · November 26 at 10:07am
Eric Kozowski Roland Deschaintull Copy
Like · Reply · November 26 at 10:07am
Roland Deschaintull Jungle eats everyrhing
Like · Reply · 11 · November 25 at 11:47pm
Roland Deschaintull No light, no sling, no optic, no night vision devices. You can't see more than 10 feet in front of you 90% of the time, you can't fight at night, the jungle will claim you long before the enemy will.
There is no worse place on the planet to fight in than the jungle.
Like · Reply · 31 · November 25 at 11:49pm
Hide 14 Replies
Frank Woods No light or sling?
Like · Reply · November 25 at 11:50pm
Matt Wicks Ok, so we're talking like Jumanji type jungle. Not some dumb ass woods. I'm tracking now.
Like · Reply · 5 · November 25 at 11:51pm
Frank Woods Would Vietnam or South America be a more accurate template to work with? Jumanji was kinda... fuckin nuts.
Like · Reply · 3 · November 25 at 11:52pm
Roland Deschaintull There are no jungles in the United states. I'm talking about the fucking jungle.
Unlike · Reply · 14 · November 25 at 11:53pm
Frank Woods But Hawaii...
Like · Reply · November 25 at 11:54pm
Roland Deschaintull Double and triple canopy jungle where the water never stops trickling down through the leaves and you can't tell if it's actually raining or not, jungle so thick not satcom or GPS signal could ever get through it, where the sky can not be seen, ever....See More
Unlike · Reply · 27 · November 25 at 11:58pm
Frank Woods Matt was right... Roland came to us out of a Jumanji board
Like · Reply · 11 · November 25 at 11:59pm
Freddie Blish Another reason we should not have given up the Panama Canal. We lost our best Jungle Training School at Ft Sherman. I learned a lot about infantry fighting, especially patrolling (live fire for us) while at MCSF Co Panama
Unlike · Reply · 18 · November 26 at 12:32am
Clayton Walling Hawaii jungle isn't really "jungle" like roland is talking about. Japan jungle is alot more...jungly. I personally never did the jungle warfare course their but i hear it's pretty fucking gnarly.
Like · Reply · November 26 at 12:52am
Alex Yuam I've watched and listened to a lot of interviews with Vietnam MOH recipients and what I found a reoccurring theme were many of them running in the forest and colliding right smack into or stepping into a small clearing with NVA or Vietcong.
Like · Reply · 1 · November 26 at 12:53am
Michael Hueser On "walkabout" in the Megafauna in C Afrique, the only time I didn't feel like I was channeling Conrad, was when I popped out into some sunlight.
The clothes and gear I had were covered in mud, blood (leeches), and varieties of fungus not seen since the Pleistocene era...
Nikon, Surefire, Kenwood, and Garmin ought to set up a permanent lab there to test their wares.
The Garmin was traded for some muck boots as it couldn't pull a signal worth a shit under triple canopy (brush up on land nav y'all).
Mold grew on EVERYTHING & in EVERYTHING...
The heat and humidity grinds on you in a way that is truly shattering.
Nothing functions well unless it is a copy of something from the Bronze Age. Or, as Trent Reznor would say... "A copy of a copy of a copy..."
----
So.....
Lessons learned.
I've traveled pretty far and fairly wide. I'm usually prepared for the sufferfests that I embrace.
In this instance... Not a fucking chance.
The Apoclyptical harshness of jungles like that eat away at not only your gear, but they sup on your soul.
There are no comfortable anchors from which to proceed.
Your gear WILL fail eventually. In there, it can happen with alarming rapidity.
I had mold growing IN my electronics. Translate that to lights, sights, laser, and optics. Think your Aimpoint will last long in the soupy funk that you will be sneaking through?
The terrain is truly an ass kicker.
Imagine if you will... Trying to traverse a series of hillocks covered in a verdancy so striking that you feel as if you are in a Garcia Marquez novel.
Every step is a puzzle. There are sharp, stabby things that will bite your body and feet (if you lose your feet, yer fucked).
There are times you will step into mud that swallows you up to your sweaty balls. And there are fucking plants and vines that are constantly grasping at you like your last jaunt to see the ladies of the pole when you had a fist full of dollars...
It is more exhausting than breaking trail up above 5000m in a white out.
Do you want to be weighed down with a load out that is designed for an urban setting with support? Good luck with that plan.
In the festering, moist, and decaying environs of that jungle, light is right.
Additionally, basic & tested kit is of paramount importance.
I tossed, or traded, almost everything. I REDISCOVERED that I traveled better & suffered less when I embraced the minimalist mindset.
Back to the point... The weapons I saw the most were bare bones. Old G3s, FNs and AKs. None had optics, lights, lasers, or slings (snaggy/chokey thingies).
They had seen lots of wear, but they had been repaired and cared for. The only question I had was regarding the condition of the ammo.
Load out was essentials only. Modified canvas chest rigs fashioned along the lines of shit you'd see all across Africa. No butterfly wings or orange life preserver mods sadly...
Everything was field stripped, cleaned, inspected, lubed and functioned checked whenever possible.
Other gear was rinsed out and exposed to light when those rare opportunities graced us.
----
The jungle is a Hobbesian Beast that has no peer.
You can battle and rage against it all you want...
In the end....
You will only lose.......
-----
The only things that were eternal in there for me were...
A thirst that cannot be slaked. It's a bit funny that. Everything is wet, but the thirst is always draining your energy. The jungle wins.
I was constantly trying to uncover the formula for the right gear. There isn't any. The jungle wins.
The ever-present & ongoing struggle with health. I was down with the sickness from the beginning until about a month after coming home.
If it wasn't malaria, it was explosive, bloody squirts that reminded me of that morning after a visit to a Pakistani curry house in London. The jungle wins.
Ergo...
If you're going to go all St. George and battle Dragons in the jungle, ensure the sword and lance you carry are able to survive the corrosive need of the Green Lady.
She is seductive after a fashion, but her embrace is often deadly.
PS: Hot sauce is your friend.
Unlike · Reply · 33 · November 26 at 12:57pm · Edited
Matt Wicks Fucking epic. Thank you.
Like · Reply · 7 · November 26 at 2:10am
Chad Mercer No joke on the hot sauce.
Like · Reply · 2 · November 26 at 9:07am
Justin Waalkes Warrior poet right there, Michael!
Like · Reply · November 26 at 10:43am
Frank Woods No light or sling?
Like · Reply · November 25 at 11:50pm
Matt Wicks Ok, so we're talking like Jumanji type jungle. Not some dumb ass woods. I'm tracking now.
Like · Reply · 5 · November 25 at 11:51pm
Frank Woods Would Vietnam or South America be a more accurate template to work with? Jumanji was kinda... fuckin nuts.
Like · Reply · 3 · November 25 at 11:52pm
Roland Deschaintull There are no jungles in the United states. I'm talking about the fucking jungle.
Unlike · Reply · 14 · November 25 at 11:53pm
Frank Woods But Hawaii...
Like · Reply · November 25 at 11:54pm
Roland Deschaintull Double and triple canopy jungle where the water never stops trickling down through the leaves and you can't tell if it's actually raining or not, jungle so thick not satcom or GPS signal could ever get through it, where the sky can not be seen, ever....See More
Unlike · Reply · 27 · November 25 at 11:58pm
Frank Woods Matt was right... Roland came to us out of a Jumanji board
Like · Reply · 11 · November 25 at 11:59pm
Freddie Blish Another reason we should not have given up the Panama Canal. We lost our best Jungle Training School at Ft Sherman. I learned a lot about infantry fighting, especially patrolling (live fire for us) while at MCSF Co Panama
Unlike · Reply · 18 · November 26 at 12:32am
Clayton Walling Hawaii jungle isn't really "jungle" like roland is talking about. Japan jungle is alot more...jungly. I personally never did the jungle warfare course their but i hear it's pretty fucking gnarly.
Like · Reply · November 26 at 12:52am
Alex Yuam I've watched and listened to a lot of interviews with Vietnam MOH recipients and what I found a reoccurring theme were many of them running in the forest and colliding right smack into or stepping into a small clearing with NVA or Vietcong.
Like · Reply · 1 · November 26 at 12:53am
Michael Hueser On "walkabout" in the Megafauna in C Afrique, the only time I didn't feel like I was channeling Conrad, was when I popped out into some sunlight.
The clothes and gear I had were covered in mud, blood (leeches), and varieties of fungus not seen since the Pleistocene era...
Nikon, Surefire, Kenwood, and Garmin ought to set up a permanent lab there to test their wares.
The Garmin was traded for some muck boots as it couldn't pull a signal worth a shit under triple canopy (brush up on land nav y'all).
Mold grew on EVERYTHING & in EVERYTHING...
The heat and humidity grinds on you in a way that is truly shattering.
Nothing functions well unless it is a copy of something from the Bronze Age. Or, as Trent Reznor would say... "A copy of a copy of a copy..."
----
So.....
Lessons learned.
I've traveled pretty far and fairly wide. I'm usually prepared for the sufferfests that I embrace.
In this instance... Not a fucking chance.
The Apoclyptical harshness of jungles like that eat away at not only your gear, but they sup on your soul.
There are no comfortable anchors from which to proceed.
Your gear WILL fail eventually. In there, it can happen with alarming rapidity.
I had mold growing IN my electronics. Translate that to lights, sights, laser, and optics. Think your Aimpoint will last long in the soupy funk that you will be sneaking through?
The terrain is truly an ass kicker.
Imagine if you will... Trying to traverse a series of hillocks covered in a verdancy so striking that you feel as if you are in a Garcia Marquez novel.
Every step is a puzzle. There are sharp, stabby things that will bite your body and feet (if you lose your feet, yer fucked).
There are times you will step into mud that swallows you up to your sweaty balls. And there are fucking plants and vines that are constantly grasping at you like your last jaunt to see the ladies of the pole when you had a fist full of dollars...
It is more exhausting than breaking trail up above 5000m in a white out.
Do you want to be weighed down with a load out that is designed for an urban setting with support? Good luck with that plan.
In the festering, moist, and decaying environs of that jungle, light is right.
Additionally, basic & tested kit is of paramount importance.
I tossed, or traded, almost everything. I REDISCOVERED that I traveled better & suffered less when I embraced the minimalist mindset.
Back to the point... The weapons I saw the most were bare bones. Old G3s, FNs and AKs. None had optics, lights, lasers, or slings (snaggy/chokey thingies).
They had seen lots of wear, but they had been repaired and cared for. The only question I had was regarding the condition of the ammo.
Load out was essentials only. Modified canvas chest rigs fashioned along the lines of shit you'd see all across Africa. No butterfly wings or orange life preserver mods sadly...
Everything was field stripped, cleaned, inspected, lubed and functioned checked whenever possible.
Other gear was rinsed out and exposed to light when those rare opportunities graced us.
----
The jungle is a Hobbesian Beast that has no peer.
You can battle and rage against it all you want...
In the end....
You will only lose.......
-----
The only things that were eternal in there for me were...
A thirst that cannot be slaked. It's a bit funny that. Everything is wet, but the thirst is always draining your energy. The jungle wins.
I was constantly trying to uncover the formula for the right gear. There isn't any. The jungle wins.
The ever-present & ongoing struggle with health. I was down with the sickness from the beginning until about a month after coming home.
If it wasn't malaria, it was explosive, bloody squirts that reminded me of that morning after a visit to a Pakistani curry house in London. The jungle wins.
Ergo...
If you're going to go all St. George and battle Dragons in the jungle, ensure the sword and lance you carry are able to survive the corrosive need of the Green Lady.
She is seductive after a fashion, but her embrace is often deadly.
PS: Hot sauce is your friend.
Unlike · Reply · 33 · November 26 at 12:57pm · Edited
Matt Wicks Fucking epic. Thank you.
Like · Reply · 7 · November 26 at 2:10am
Chad Mercer No joke on the hot sauce.
Like · Reply · 2 · November 26 at 9:07am
Justin Waalkes Warrior poet right there, Michael!
Like · Reply · November 26 at 10:43am
Mike Griffin I spent a good bit of time in the jungle of Central America doing survival, remote med, and high angle rescue training and simpler is better. The jungle is indifferent to your survival and trying to break everything within its boundaries down even at the molecular level. I lost the sole of boot within a weeks use, thrashed many a pair of pants, and still have a little bit of mud in a few of my packs.
Gear has to be durable, able to be cleaned, and nothing is waterproof in the jungle.
I actually kinda like the jungle but it grinds on people and gear at a rapid rate.
Spent some time with Belize Defense Force SOF guys in my classes and all their guns look like Roland's sans SF mag. It's a clue beyond budget.
Unlike · Reply · 18 · November 26 at 12:37am
Greg Tick How were the belezian guys to work with?
Like · Reply · November 26 at 3:49pm
Mike Griffin Always great. Skill varied as we had upper tier guys as well as GPF guys come through class but all were pretty squared away, good in the bush, and we're great liaisons to locals we didn't know already.
Like · Reply · November 26 at 3:51pm
Mike Griffin And it was always nice to have a couple guys armed since it was a pretty significant challenge for non citizens to get gun permits.
Like · Reply · 1 · November 26 at 3:53pm
Cj Hyatt A) Fuck the jungle.
B) Are cut down RPDs still a thing?
Like · Reply · 12 · November 26 at 1:05am
Terry J. David They still are in some parts. wink emoticon
Like · Reply · November 26 at 1:47am · Edited
Justin Amato When ever anyone asks me what operating in the jungle is like, I have to start off with "the jungle will butt fuck your soul". It is the worst environment I have been in.
Roland has layer out the most ideal setup for an AR in the jungle.
Like · Reply · 6 · November 26 at 9:41am
Frank Woods Here's what preconceived notions out the window looks like.
Like · Reply · 1 · November 26 at 9:55am
Kurt Weber I carried a Chinese folding stock AK variant for quite a while, thought it would be cool but in the end I hated it.
I carried a 10.5" M-4 (before the Mk 18 became standard) for many years, loved it. No comparison between the two, M-4 was way better.
This was the gun I carried for about 3 years of working in the jungle.
Like · Reply · 6 · November 26 at 12:11pm · Edited
Frank Woods Whereabouts?
Like · Reply · November 26 at 12:20pm
Kurt Weber All over Asia and SE Asia, from 1988 until I retired in 2005.
Like · Reply · November 26 at 12:22pm
Matt James Pretty much what is the current issue for the Mk18...
Like · Reply · 1 · November 26 at 12:10pm
Kurt Weber I gave up my AK to carry a regular M16. About a year or so latter we got CAR-15s, then years later the M4, eventually the 10.5 customs. They kept getting better
Unlike · Reply · 5 · November 26 at 12:12pm
Jimfrared Philapy Roland, any merit for a full size M16?
Like · Reply · 1 · November 26 at 3:18pm · Edited
Roland Deschaintull Yeah, you can use the FSP to grab wait a minute vines further in front of you and deflect them out of your way.
Like · Reply · 4 · November 26 at 3:19pm
Roland Deschaintull No not really that I saw.
Like · Reply · 1 · November 26 at 3:47pm
Odie Tucker Such good discussion, all of my jungle time is non face shooting. I can barely imagine fighting off an infection there much less an enemy that is ready and willing to end me and my buddies day. I can see where the send overwhelming rounds in the direction of whatever is trying to kill you being the primary response. Nucking Futs.
Like · Reply · 2 · 20 hrs
