Houston. We have a problem.

#1
In another post one of the members had a question about WMLs and using them as a stand-off to prevent the slide from coming out of battery.

We have various opinions on it even being an issue but a good question was raised.
What if I pull the trigger while it’s out of battery? At first I said that’s a non issue but I based that on my experience in combatives socp and 3sd where I was always armed with a sims Glock.

I pulled the following firearms out of the safe and proceed to test them by using dummy rounds and doing the following.

1. Push the slide out of battery then let it return. All weapons fired.

2. Push the slide out of battery pull the trigger and release it then let the slide go back into battery. Only the Walther PPQs failed. The PPS passed.

3. Push the slide out of battery pull the trigger and hold it to the rear then let the slide go back in battery. Only Walter PPQs failed to fire.

The following all passed.

Glock 19 17 34 22 21 43 35 48

Sig P220 P226 P229 P320 P365

Beretta mod 96 92

HK USP .45

XD 9 40 45

FN 5.7

S&W MP

9 x 1911 variants from colt SA Kimber

Walther PPS

The Walther PPQ M2 M2 5” and Q5 match failed tests 2 and 3 041D99CB-57D0-4930-B35A-49245743DE11.jpeg 6C58ADCB-0EBE-4876-A9D2-9A1D4FAC8672.jpeg C4EDE7E9-A0BF-47EE-8747-DC4DE42B5294.jpeg please replicate this with your unloaded firearms and let us all know if the results are the same.
 

rudukai13

Too Established
Network Support III
#4
Can you better define what pass/fail means? Presumably the gun is not supposed to fire while either out of battery or only upon returning to battery until the trigger is released and pulled again during tests 2 and 3 correct?

Both of my RS320s (one with the stock X-Series trigger and one with the Apex trigger kit) performed as follows;

Test 1; Fired upon pulling the trigger once slide returned to battery

Test 2; Did not fire while out of battery. Fired upon pulling the trigger again once slide returned to battery

Test 3; Did not fire out of battery or upon return to battery with the trigger depressed, trigger had to be released and pulled again at which time guns fired.

So at least for the P320 platform if you pull the trigger while the slide is out of battery it won’t fire, but it will be ready to fire again immediately after returning to battery
 

rudukai13

Too Established
Network Support III
#5
My understanding of what you’re saying is; If the trigger on the PPQ is pulled while out of battery, it will have a dead trigger once it returns to battery until you manually fully cycle the slide again?

Please correct me if I’m misinterpreting your post
 
#6
My understanding of what you’re saying is; If the trigger on the PPQ is pulled while out of battery, it will have a dead trigger once it returns to battery until you manually fully cycle the slide again?

Please correct me if I’m misinterpreting your post
No. You are correct. If you pull the trigger while the slide is out of battery the gun is dead until you rack the slide. All other guns just shoot.
 

rudukai13

Too Established
Network Support III
#7
No. You are correct. If you pull the trigger while the slide is out of battery the gun is dead until you rack the slide. All other guns just shoot.
That’s concerning. I don’t have a PPQ myself but I’ll post a thread on a couple other forums asking PPQ owners to run this test and report back the results
 

rudukai13

Too Established
Network Support III
#11
@Chriscanbreach how far out of battery are you moving the slide on the PPQ before manipulating the trigger? What happens if you push the slide further out of battery than that and re-run tests 2 and 3?
 
#12
Good question. So this occurs in the first .5” or so of going out of battery. If the trigger is pulled when the slide clears this point it will function. F997A628-4B76-46E6-9AF4-FA9C284586C1.jpeg 8729B3E5-7EF1-480D-9B0E-1717A73BC5D4.jpeg To make this happen the barrel can’t be contacted and the slide has to be pulled back alone when you drive the muzzle into something it doesn’t go back far enough. Racking the slide fixes it but getting it out of battery far enough to let it work but not too far to cause a malfunction is hard to do.
 
#15
As an update the Walther rep is in touch. I’ll advise when I get back from vacation on Monday.

As of right now we will most likely not authorize them for duty use.
 
#16
Unfortunately we were unable to approve the Walther PPQ for duty use. The dead trigger was discussed and we looked at it from all angles.
We’re we ok as a unit approving the firearm knowing of this issue even if we educated the end user? If we told them hey if you’re fighting and pull the trigger while it out of battery you are going to have to cycle the slide to get a round off.
We agreed as a unit there was no benefit of this firearm over others in its class that outweighed the even remote possibility of it occurring.
I think the PPQ is awesome and the data we gathered from the mantis tests bears that out. Its not that much of an advantage over the other guns to accept the very real failure that can occur in our environment.

I welcome your thoughts.
 
#17
2003/4ish, my agency was issuing S&W Sigmas(Hard to think of a worse gun) An officer encountered this problem while being stabbed in the face/neck with a screw driver. He then tried to get it running with a rack, but ended up with a stovepipe doing it in a clinched/being stabbed position. Not that I expect anyone here will carry a sigma, but I wouldn’t carry a pistol that had this issue.

PS, we just ordered optic ready M&P 2.0s for everyone.... we’ve come a long way since those dark days firearms wise.


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