HOLDING THE WIND VS DIALING
- Thread starter Matt Landfair
- Start date
So... "Do one, the other, or both. Doing both is best." Did I get that right? Sure glad he took the time to write that down for us.
His waste of an article aside, I've never been shooting anywhere the wind would oblige; by the time you dialed it, the wind had changed. Maybe there are places that work differently (I sure haven't been shooting everywhere), but that's why I hold for wind. Holding for wind (and distance) is why I use a FFP scope and a Horus reticle.
- Jake
His waste of an article aside, I've never been shooting anywhere the wind would oblige; by the time you dialed it, the wind had changed. Maybe there are places that work differently (I sure haven't been shooting everywhere), but that's why I hold for wind. Holding for wind (and distance) is why I use a FFP scope and a Horus reticle.
- Jake
I wish I knew to go FFP and Horus...
Barry in IN
Amateur
It's pretty rare when the wind is constant enough to dial. In fact, I don't remember being able to. Maybe dial for some of it then hold the difference when/as it changes.
Richard Boucher
Newbie
We have only taught holding for wind since we started SOTIC in 1985. One thing about wind, it will change, and at the worse possible time. I have shot competition for years read tha tas since the 1950s as Jr NRA). You dial winds after sighter shots. No sighter shots in the sniper world. Even with sighters you have to pay attention or get burned. We had some guys on our range, 66E, some years back that wanted to dial. Since it was not a course and training only, what the heck, let them find out the hared way. One thing about 66E, if you do not like the wind, wait a second and it will change, speed, and or direction. After a few exasperating goes, they quit as impractical.
We also teach sniper pairs whenever possible, with the observer being the most experienced sniper. That wind call is important and the observer needs to make it as he has the better scope and not looking over a potentially hot barrel. The command to shoot is the wind call, nothing else is said, example, left half mil. Within a few, 1 - 2 seconds the shot should be made. With an experienced team, the sniper will estimated the wind and have held a portion if not all teh call. thus the shot and call are almost simultaneous.
One the Horus reticle. Get one that you can also dial and hold for elevation. Stay away from things like the Tremor reticle as it is actually only set for the 308 round. This creates problems using it.
My 2 cents.
We also teach sniper pairs whenever possible, with the observer being the most experienced sniper. That wind call is important and the observer needs to make it as he has the better scope and not looking over a potentially hot barrel. The command to shoot is the wind call, nothing else is said, example, left half mil. Within a few, 1 - 2 seconds the shot should be made. With an experienced team, the sniper will estimated the wind and have held a portion if not all teh call. thus the shot and call are almost simultaneous.
One the Horus reticle. Get one that you can also dial and hold for elevation. Stay away from things like the Tremor reticle as it is actually only set for the 308 round. This creates problems using it.
My 2 cents.
Richard Boucher
Newbie
First off, ALL of the SF snipers I have talked to did not want the Tremor2 reticle due to limitations and problems that were shown by SOTIC, now SFSC. Selection was a political power shove. I have direct access to SF snipers and their school.
Not sure what you are referring to in my "history lesson" but we have never taught dialing the wind as it does not work for sniper work. We teach sniper teams as it has been shown through history to be the more effective way of shooting sniping, especially over longer periods of time and for security. Using wind dots that are spaced for 3, 4 or 5 mph depending on the caliber, does nothing for a follow on shot from the observer that saw trace but no bullet impact on the ground, which is usually what happens. The observer, needing to make a correction needs a point of reference and the wind dots do not work.
Add to the fact that at longer ranges, when the shooter will dial in say 10 mils so his hold over is not so great, the wind dots become useless. It is exactly at that range that the 338 and spin drift will screw the shot and when it becomes readily evident that the Tremor reticle patterns fail. Yes, I have shot at 1500 meters with 10 mil up on the scope due to the fact that with a 25 power scope, I would have had to power down so far as to negate the use of the higher power of the scope, and that would have been stupid.
You wish to worship at the alter of the Tremor, you be my guest, I shall not as I have seen the limitations of that reticle.
Not sure what you are referring to in my "history lesson" but we have never taught dialing the wind as it does not work for sniper work. We teach sniper teams as it has been shown through history to be the more effective way of shooting sniping, especially over longer periods of time and for security. Using wind dots that are spaced for 3, 4 or 5 mph depending on the caliber, does nothing for a follow on shot from the observer that saw trace but no bullet impact on the ground, which is usually what happens. The observer, needing to make a correction needs a point of reference and the wind dots do not work.
Add to the fact that at longer ranges, when the shooter will dial in say 10 mils so his hold over is not so great, the wind dots become useless. It is exactly at that range that the 338 and spin drift will screw the shot and when it becomes readily evident that the Tremor reticle patterns fail. Yes, I have shot at 1500 meters with 10 mil up on the scope due to the fact that with a 25 power scope, I would have had to power down so far as to negate the use of the higher power of the scope, and that would have been stupid.
You wish to worship at the alter of the Tremor, you be my guest, I shall not as I have seen the limitations of that reticle.
Richard Boucher
Newbie
I have not worked for Horus at all. Coming up 10 mils will not make you run out of windage mils for wind calls, but it will negate your wind dots.
As far as seeing bullet impact, most shots I have not been able to sense the bullet impact due to foliage, and other factors. Even Todd admits to firing a round into the dirt on long range shots due to his trouble sensing misses. That way he knows how much it missed and then he can shift to the target, not sure if you would like to do that on a sniper mission.
The Tremor was originally set up to work on the DMRs and were set for 308. When the DMR program sank, Horus started claiming, with Todd, that it would work on all rounds, not rally true. The little christmas tree for rapid holds are only for 308 and can get guys into trouble trying to use them for anything else.
My next problem is the 3, 4, and 5mph windows. 5 mph is rather large of a wind for long range work, we worked to get the guys within a 3 mph window and pick the middle sped for computing the hold. Computing the hold, as an example, for a 3 to 5 mph wind would have the observer/shooter compute for 4 mph. If it is either 3 or 5 they are only 1 mph off. It takes minimal work to look at a wind see the speed and translate into mils.
As far as sensing a miss by bullet splash in the dirt, that does not occur on most shots in the real world. There is not bare dirt around the target from all the other shooters shooting at the same target and grass not being able to grow there. Sometimes targets are on hill tops, hidden in tall grass, in bushes, etc making bullet splash very difficult. As far as seeing your own trace, that is something most shooters cannot do even after years of practice, and even those that do have trouble most of the time.
As I said, if you love the Tremor that is fine, but understand the limitations on a fine wind call with the large gap between dots. The need to dial down the power to engage longer range targets. And not dial up a bit so you are not powering down to 10 power or even lower, I was at 8 power for a 1600 meter shot with Todd. That is stupid. Dial up 10 mils and you are back up to 18 power for the long shot. Wind dots will not now work once you have dialed. Oh, I guess you could look at that target at 1600 at 8 power, but why?
As far as seeing bullet impact, most shots I have not been able to sense the bullet impact due to foliage, and other factors. Even Todd admits to firing a round into the dirt on long range shots due to his trouble sensing misses. That way he knows how much it missed and then he can shift to the target, not sure if you would like to do that on a sniper mission.
The Tremor was originally set up to work on the DMRs and were set for 308. When the DMR program sank, Horus started claiming, with Todd, that it would work on all rounds, not rally true. The little christmas tree for rapid holds are only for 308 and can get guys into trouble trying to use them for anything else.
My next problem is the 3, 4, and 5mph windows. 5 mph is rather large of a wind for long range work, we worked to get the guys within a 3 mph window and pick the middle sped for computing the hold. Computing the hold, as an example, for a 3 to 5 mph wind would have the observer/shooter compute for 4 mph. If it is either 3 or 5 they are only 1 mph off. It takes minimal work to look at a wind see the speed and translate into mils.
As far as sensing a miss by bullet splash in the dirt, that does not occur on most shots in the real world. There is not bare dirt around the target from all the other shooters shooting at the same target and grass not being able to grow there. Sometimes targets are on hill tops, hidden in tall grass, in bushes, etc making bullet splash very difficult. As far as seeing your own trace, that is something most shooters cannot do even after years of practice, and even those that do have trouble most of the time.
As I said, if you love the Tremor that is fine, but understand the limitations on a fine wind call with the large gap between dots. The need to dial down the power to engage longer range targets. And not dial up a bit so you are not powering down to 10 power or even lower, I was at 8 power for a 1600 meter shot with Todd. That is stupid. Dial up 10 mils and you are back up to 18 power for the long shot. Wind dots will not now work once you have dialed. Oh, I guess you could look at that target at 1600 at 8 power, but why?
Richard Boucher
Newbie
Never said it was an ACOG with wind dots, and I am just as much against those that with BS praise for its glories on Professional sites that could get someone to buy something that does not work.
I am out of this conversation. And as you are a staff member, you may continue to sing its praises. I will leave and not bother you or your professionals. None of what I said was BS, it was personal experience wiht the reticle by myself and others that ahve used and tested it and found all the problems I have stated.
Oh, and even you admitted to the "Yeah, I suppose my blind faith and religious zealotry was pretty apparent in my post, which was basically an advertisement for the Tremor2 reticle. Todd should cut me a check."
I am out of this conversation. And as you are a staff member, you may continue to sing its praises. I will leave and not bother you or your professionals. None of what I said was BS, it was personal experience wiht the reticle by myself and others that ahve used and tested it and found all the problems I have stated.
Oh, and even you admitted to the "Yeah, I suppose my blind faith and religious zealotry was pretty apparent in my post, which was basically an advertisement for the Tremor2 reticle. Todd should cut me a check."
shootcancerintheface
Newbie
Hold for wind!
FWIW, Mr. Boucher has forgotten more about sniping, long range shooting, and training snipers than most will ever know. As far as reticle choice, I will say that Mr. Boucher's statements above came from testing at the premier sniper schoolhouse in the world. Although there are mixed opinions on the Horus vs Tremor debate, and some have embraced the Tremor, the vast majority of professional Snipers prefer the Horus for all the reasons mentioned above, and spend their own money to ensure they have the best.
There is a lot more behind government contracts than performance....but won't get into that here.
FWIW, Mr. Boucher has forgotten more about sniping, long range shooting, and training snipers than most will ever know. As far as reticle choice, I will say that Mr. Boucher's statements above came from testing at the premier sniper schoolhouse in the world. Although there are mixed opinions on the Horus vs Tremor debate, and some have embraced the Tremor, the vast majority of professional Snipers prefer the Horus for all the reasons mentioned above, and spend their own money to ensure they have the best.
There is a lot more behind government contracts than performance....but won't get into that here.
shootcancerintheface
Newbie
May be too bold to say "the vast majority of professional snipers prefer the Horus," but without a doubt, the vast majority of SOF snipers that I have worked with prefer the Horus.
In the end though, training will always enable you to learn to use your equipment to its fullest capability, and most equipment limitations, either perceived or actual, can be overcome with training.
In the end though, training will always enable you to learn to use your equipment to its fullest capability, and most equipment limitations, either perceived or actual, can be overcome with training.
I hold for wind, once I zero the windage, I rarely touch it afterwords unless their is a shift. Usually if it has locking turrets I don't even bother slipping the ring's on windage.
My reasoning being, once you have experienced gusting, swirling, or in general bat shit crazy wind's you realize how quickly they can change. In light wind, when it can't agree on were it wants to blow every 100-200m or so, which constantly changing directions/speeds makes you realize that dialling is going to have you chasing the wind all over the place and takes your hand off firing controls longer.
There may be a select small percentage of times that dialling a bit of wind might be worth it, but for a LE/Mil Sniper its generally not, and that is in conditions which allow you to see your windage knob. Dialling that and night is just going to get you lost in your adjustments and its best to keep things as KISS as possible in that scenario.
Disclaimer and slightly off topic- I have a H58 and two H59 scopes. I really do like the H59, but thats me. I understand in an academic sense how a Tremor is supposed to be utilised, and it can be a powerful tool once your wind dot values are established. But I don't have time nor the range to actually gather that kind of data and get familiar with it. The H59 is just a mil reticle, and can be used accordingly for my uses. Its fits the extent of my experience and capabilities.
That being said, I prefer the newer version, the Tremor 3 which is essentially the H59 with the wind dots of the 2. To me this is the best of both worlds, as I loath the inconsistent mil stadia in the Tremor 2. I like the known .2 mil stadia in the H reticles. The T3 to me seems like a more versatile platform for the current smattering of mil reticle spotter's out if your running a more traditional shooter/spotter arrangement. Even the newer Shooter/Shooter concept with each spotting for the other this makes sense, as it eases the cross talk burden down to simple terms. I have yet to get behind either T2 or 3 and actually put them to use so I withhold my judgement on their real world application.
Thoughts?
My reasoning being, once you have experienced gusting, swirling, or in general bat shit crazy wind's you realize how quickly they can change. In light wind, when it can't agree on were it wants to blow every 100-200m or so, which constantly changing directions/speeds makes you realize that dialling is going to have you chasing the wind all over the place and takes your hand off firing controls longer.
There may be a select small percentage of times that dialling a bit of wind might be worth it, but for a LE/Mil Sniper its generally not, and that is in conditions which allow you to see your windage knob. Dialling that and night is just going to get you lost in your adjustments and its best to keep things as KISS as possible in that scenario.
Disclaimer and slightly off topic- I have a H58 and two H59 scopes. I really do like the H59, but thats me. I understand in an academic sense how a Tremor is supposed to be utilised, and it can be a powerful tool once your wind dot values are established. But I don't have time nor the range to actually gather that kind of data and get familiar with it. The H59 is just a mil reticle, and can be used accordingly for my uses. Its fits the extent of my experience and capabilities.
That being said, I prefer the newer version, the Tremor 3 which is essentially the H59 with the wind dots of the 2. To me this is the best of both worlds, as I loath the inconsistent mil stadia in the Tremor 2. I like the known .2 mil stadia in the H reticles. The T3 to me seems like a more versatile platform for the current smattering of mil reticle spotter's out if your running a more traditional shooter/spotter arrangement. Even the newer Shooter/Shooter concept with each spotting for the other this makes sense, as it eases the cross talk burden down to simple terms. I have yet to get behind either T2 or 3 and actually put them to use so I withhold my judgement on their real world application.
Thoughts?
jmatt511
Amateur
I'm a big believer in the Horus reticle and am using the H37. I find if I need to work quickly, the hold over/Kentucky windage system works for me. Unless I'm out of visible elevation on the scope (beyond 2000 yards-big talk for an old man) I'd rather not have to twist the turrets. But that's just me. I've been trained to do both do both, but like it simple.