Fail to Fire

Bill Blowers

Bill Blowers

Sausage Six Actual
VIP
if its shot one or two out of the goin, Tap, Rack, shoot/Assess/scan/do work

If I'm past shot two, Rack only? At that point it is extremely unlikely that the mag has unseated. In fact, for me, I have never squished the mag release on a pistol under recoil. So it must be the round which only requires a rack.

Thoughts?
 
J

JPourciau

Newbie
I am but a student, but for me... Tap, rack, whatever is ingrained as a default initial response regardless of how many shots I've fired. I doubt I could train myself out of the tap based on number of shots even if I wanted to. I would question whether any perceived time savings would be mitigated by the the time required to decide which action is necessary based on number of rounds fired.
 
JD Williams

JD Williams

Member
Tap may let you know you are missing a floor plate, spring, follower, and bullets. Kind of a non diagnostic diagnosis...

It's not outside the realm that recoil could knock that floor plate loose if it was already about to go. If you are or were moving between shot strings through brush and obstacles you may not have recognized your stuff is gone. I think tap has value in the situation you described however unlikely the disappearance of the floor plate may be.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Bill Blowers

Bill Blowers

Sausage Six Actual
VIP
I've never lost a base pad doing anything with a pistol. Ever. That's a personal example, I'm sure stories abound. But I haven't.

In fact, I am constantly checking mag status. I go to the base plate all the time out of habit. While there, I usually give it a little pull to ensure its seated.

I have had lots of FTF in pistols, always the bullet, or lack of one because I was a dumbass and didn't check.

It saves me .5 seconds to exclude the tap.
 
ptrlcop

ptrlcop

Established
I've had base plates come off. When I started we were issued sigmas and they came off all the time. It has happened less regularly since we transition to m&ps. I've never had it happen with my Glocks.
 
Bill Blowers

Bill Blowers

Sausage Six Actual
VIP
Ever happen while your gun was in the holster or mags in pouches? Or all when you dropped them for speed reloads?
 
ptrlcop

ptrlcop

Established
Guys regularly jumped out of the car and had the base plate rocket off the sigmas.

When I shot the qual in the academy my base plate and 14rds fell out on the draw... That was with a sigma tho.

I'm not around enough M&P shooters to know when the plates have come off. 4/5 of my sniper partners that I shoot with most often shoot Glocks.
 
ptrlcop

ptrlcop

Established
Agreed on the sigma. However the M&P base plate does not appear significantly different in design. It is possible we have not started to see those issues yet because we replaced our .40 m&ps within 5 years and the 9s are less than a year old.

Proper preventative maintenance is clearly the answer, but we know how well institutions do that...
 
back spin

back spin

Amateur
With regard to hitting the mag release in recoil, I think it can be platform dependent. I seen it happen many times with our issued Sig P226's. I myself struggled with having my palm hitting the mag release in recoil (usually after multiple rounds fired in rapid succession) until I changed my grip technique. I've seen shooters skip the tap and end up with another empty chamber.

However, I've never hit mag release unintentionally with a Glock. I've found the Sig's magazine release to be a bit more sensitive to activation compared to a Glock.

Also, I've had 4 instances where the floor plate crapped out on me while I was shooting the gun. 2 times with heavily used 10 round Glock 19 mags, 2 times with heavily used standard capacity P226 mags. Each time I knew my floor plate flew off the moment it happened.
 
Bill Blowers

Bill Blowers

Sausage Six Actual
VIP
Thanks back spin, we used to issue Sig classic and I never saw or heard of that happening. I'm not saying it can't happen, it doesn't happen to me, and with most people I ask it is doesn't happen to them either with their specific gun.
 
back spin

back spin

Amateur
Haha, yeah I seem to have a way of discovering these obscure malfunctions/breakages. I think I may have the record at my agency for parts breakages in my gun.

I suspect shooting the snappy .357sig was a contributing factor for me hitting the mag release in recoil. No matter how hard I side clamped, the gun would shift in my (small) hands and the muzzle flipped. That hard side clamping grip with my support hand would then cause my palm to hit the mag release.

The other thing I see which causes shooters to hit the mag release in recoil is when righties are shooting SHO. Some shooters would point their thumb straight ahead (resting just above the mag release). Without a firm grip on the gun, the gun flips in recoil and their thumbs hit the button.
 
Grayman

Grayman

Established
My training MP mags have been in service for 6+ years with thousands of rounds and hundreds of drops both loaded and unloaded never had one spit the baseplate. They are easier to take apart than glock mags but I've never seen one fail.

As for the OP I had a sims gun go tits up on me and I went through 3 mags without a single successful shot.... I tap racked the whole way. Ha ha. Thank god my partner was laying some paint hate cuz I wasn't doing shit.

I'm sure you could switch after the 2nd or 3rd round to just a rack but I'm not sure I would dedicate the time to training it... I don't know if the juice is worth the squeeze.
 
Andy Beefcastle

Andy Beefcastle

Member
When I'm shooting numerous rounds and doing dummy drills, or when I've had legit malfunctions with my Gen3 G22 w/ WML (known issue if anyone not aware), I found myself not "tapping" and just racking. Part of it I'm sure is outrunning my headlights and getting too caught up in getting the next round in the chamber. In fact, I'll say most of that is outrunning my headlights.

I try to tap the magazine as a matter of principle, because it's a free safeguard to eliminate one more problem from the list. The thing is, you may be fine, but I've known cops with some bigass hands accidentally hitting mag releases (as well as slide lock levers). A mag tap is free insurance.

Would I skip a mag tap? Yeah, and I have, but not intentionally and I know in my head that I need to stop it and do it the same way every time. It's a training scar that I need to get rid of (like that damn Magpul mag flip thing I still find myself doing occasionally), and I'm consciously working on it.
Would I teach others to skip it? Absolutely not.

Just my $0.02, which is worth exactly that.
 
Andy Beefcastle

Andy Beefcastle

Member
There's a difference between a universal skill versus a tailored modification.
My agency started teaching to drop the slide using the slide lock lever, but some lightbulbs went on when they saw that I could not reach the slide lock lever on my gun without drastically shifting my grip and rotating the gun in my hand. They didn't take into account small hands (I have REALLY small hands, BTW). It brought up an interesting discussion, but in the end, I'm firmly of the belief that skills should start out being universal and then MAY be tailored and modified as time and resources permit.
 
Bill Blowers

Bill Blowers

Sausage Six Actual
VIP
So, after much thought on this topic, I am attempting to abandon the Tap. I can do it reliably if I pre-set a dummy, I still Tap like a mo'fo' when I get it unannounced.

I don't think it is necessary for me. I press check every time I put on the gun, overkill perhaps, but I do it nonetheless. I also pull the magazine to ensure it is fully loaded. I reinsert and pull the mag to ensure it is seated. It goes in the holster. I routinely check the mag status throughout the day, not because it is in the habit of coming out, I'm just a freak about it being in. So I am as positive as I am ever gonna be that the gun has a loaded chamber and the magazine is seated.

Along Andy's reasoning, I think I am tailoring that specific drill to my own due diligence. Maybe not one for the masses. But unlike Andy, I don't believe it is free since the Tap takes .5. Maybe not much, but I am easily hitting .25 splits with hits, so that is two rounds less that have hit or are on the way. Those two might make all the difference in the world. YMMV and all that.

I'll let everyone know if I'm killed due to omitting the "Tap".
 
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