Rednecknerd
Newbie
That last terminal ballistics podcast (263) was wonderful and I agree with almost everything said. I've been sharing that one around, but I feel it left something out. I'm going to put this out here to get some more thoughts and opinions.
We all think we know what our self defense use case is and we prepare our ammo for the most likely threat we would face, for most part, dangerous humans. But humans are not the only threat that we should prep for. Where I used to live in the southwest my biggest threat was the normal violent people, then a very occasional mountain lion and black bear attacks. In that threat environment 9mm service sidearms and 38 caliber revolvers with duty ammo was perfectly adequate. But now I live in south central Alaska, coastal brown bears, big black bears and angry moose happen with some regularity. With the largest specimens of both in the 1500-1600lb range, the use of normal self defense calibers and/or ammo will dangerously under penetrant. Combine that with how thick the bone in the skull and spine are, the ammo chosen for self defense when large and dangerous game becomes factored in becomes more picky.
When I first moved up here I had a run in with mama moose and a little one at 20yrd on a narrow hiking trail in town. I had my milk run handgun, a S&W 642-2 in 38spl. We had just come from the store and stopped on the way home to take a walk. That was not a good feeling wondering if I had to take a shot, if the bullet would penetrate anywhere near enough to hit anything of importance. Gun was loaded with 158grn wadcutters at 800fps. Turned out ok and mama didn't want to kick my shit in, watched her and talked to her for 15 minutes tell a few more hikers came along with some dogs. Mama moose moved really quick once the dogs showed up. I bought a bigger hiking gun the next week
Firearms are always the last line of defense. Situational awareness is where we can avoid almost every fight, Use bear bells, they prevent more encounters than everything else. I put them on the back of my pack and on my long gun slings. Also bear spray, bear spray stops a lot of charges, statistically more than handguns do. Bear spray has advantage too, you also don't need to report a wounded bear to F&G or bring them the hide, but always, bear spray in one hand, sidearm in the other. I run bear spray on the left side, and sidearm on the right or chest holster.
As normal with most things, long guns are the way to go, but 5.56 is really far too light. The AK F&G run Mossberg 590s loaded with flashbang, beanbag, the rest with slugs. I run about the same, a Mossberg 500 with 3in brenneke black magic magnum slugs. A lot of 30 cal full power rifles are carried for self defense, lots of belted magnum, and light elephant guns, 375h&h and 416s. 45-70 and 444 is also well represented.
The problem is that for so much, a long gun is cumbersome. Trying to flycast with a long gun on your back is a bit of a trick. Hiking any great distance in non high likelihood of contact areas makes it more likely that the long gun on the bank, in camp, or in the safe. I prefer to carry a handgun in a chest holster or on the hip as well as a long gun if I am in a more likely location like salmon streams or picking blueberries.
The rule with handguns I was told was 40cal and up, 300grn and up, 1K fps and up. There was not such a rule for rifles. That hand gun rule of thumb just about rules all semi autos out. With something as fast moving as a bear charge more lead and faster follow up shots would be of great advantage. Bears can move at 35mph, with most charges starting at 10-15yard that's not much time, some 1.14s. Data shows that service sidearms do alright if loaded with proper bullets on bears. There is the shoemaker case with a 9mm S&W and 147+p lead round nose, a few Anchorage PD with 40S&W shooting black bears, 10mm auto with the right load seams to make a good argument but has had some problems with under penetration and duty ammo, like any other caliber. Most people consider heavy 44 mag as the minimum.
My current woods gun is a 4.2in Ruger Redhawk in 45acp/45colt running +P 45 colt handloads, 360grn lead flat nose at 1000fps. I shoot the same load out of a Winchester 94ae in 45 colt too as a camp rifle. Wife's woods gun is a 4in ruger gp100 in 357 mag, lighter than most run but it's what she shoots best. Rounds on target are better than a miss, regardless of caliber.
Due to hasmat shipping most places will not ship to Alaska, so handloads are the only good way to go, but that gives some flexibility. What should I be looking for metrics wise with dangerous games in both handgun and rifle, heavy for caliber, velocity, all copper? What projects work? Hollow points and soft points have a bad rap when it comes to both handgun and rifle due to expanding and not penetrating. Hard cast lead has been my go to but it's got problems. In handguns do the lehigh xtreme penetrators work and do they work at standard pressure or need +p. If not, would an all copper flat nose fmj be the best option.
How about long guns, I think an ar10 in 358 Winchester makes a good argument, light with a heavy cartridge. 45-70 lever actions do as well. Heavy 30-06 and 308 loads seem to perform well enough. How about 7mm rem mag? A 160-175grn hunting bullet like a Nosler partition or Barnes tsx looks promising but I have no experience with them. The woodleigh hydro solid in 7mm looks interesting as well, but it also might just icepick without causing major injuries unless hitting bone. I know this topic is not in this group's normal wheelhouse but I would like some input.
We all think we know what our self defense use case is and we prepare our ammo for the most likely threat we would face, for most part, dangerous humans. But humans are not the only threat that we should prep for. Where I used to live in the southwest my biggest threat was the normal violent people, then a very occasional mountain lion and black bear attacks. In that threat environment 9mm service sidearms and 38 caliber revolvers with duty ammo was perfectly adequate. But now I live in south central Alaska, coastal brown bears, big black bears and angry moose happen with some regularity. With the largest specimens of both in the 1500-1600lb range, the use of normal self defense calibers and/or ammo will dangerously under penetrant. Combine that with how thick the bone in the skull and spine are, the ammo chosen for self defense when large and dangerous game becomes factored in becomes more picky.
When I first moved up here I had a run in with mama moose and a little one at 20yrd on a narrow hiking trail in town. I had my milk run handgun, a S&W 642-2 in 38spl. We had just come from the store and stopped on the way home to take a walk. That was not a good feeling wondering if I had to take a shot, if the bullet would penetrate anywhere near enough to hit anything of importance. Gun was loaded with 158grn wadcutters at 800fps. Turned out ok and mama didn't want to kick my shit in, watched her and talked to her for 15 minutes tell a few more hikers came along with some dogs. Mama moose moved really quick once the dogs showed up. I bought a bigger hiking gun the next week
Firearms are always the last line of defense. Situational awareness is where we can avoid almost every fight, Use bear bells, they prevent more encounters than everything else. I put them on the back of my pack and on my long gun slings. Also bear spray, bear spray stops a lot of charges, statistically more than handguns do. Bear spray has advantage too, you also don't need to report a wounded bear to F&G or bring them the hide, but always, bear spray in one hand, sidearm in the other. I run bear spray on the left side, and sidearm on the right or chest holster.
As normal with most things, long guns are the way to go, but 5.56 is really far too light. The AK F&G run Mossberg 590s loaded with flashbang, beanbag, the rest with slugs. I run about the same, a Mossberg 500 with 3in brenneke black magic magnum slugs. A lot of 30 cal full power rifles are carried for self defense, lots of belted magnum, and light elephant guns, 375h&h and 416s. 45-70 and 444 is also well represented.
The problem is that for so much, a long gun is cumbersome. Trying to flycast with a long gun on your back is a bit of a trick. Hiking any great distance in non high likelihood of contact areas makes it more likely that the long gun on the bank, in camp, or in the safe. I prefer to carry a handgun in a chest holster or on the hip as well as a long gun if I am in a more likely location like salmon streams or picking blueberries.
The rule with handguns I was told was 40cal and up, 300grn and up, 1K fps and up. There was not such a rule for rifles. That hand gun rule of thumb just about rules all semi autos out. With something as fast moving as a bear charge more lead and faster follow up shots would be of great advantage. Bears can move at 35mph, with most charges starting at 10-15yard that's not much time, some 1.14s. Data shows that service sidearms do alright if loaded with proper bullets on bears. There is the shoemaker case with a 9mm S&W and 147+p lead round nose, a few Anchorage PD with 40S&W shooting black bears, 10mm auto with the right load seams to make a good argument but has had some problems with under penetration and duty ammo, like any other caliber. Most people consider heavy 44 mag as the minimum.
My current woods gun is a 4.2in Ruger Redhawk in 45acp/45colt running +P 45 colt handloads, 360grn lead flat nose at 1000fps. I shoot the same load out of a Winchester 94ae in 45 colt too as a camp rifle. Wife's woods gun is a 4in ruger gp100 in 357 mag, lighter than most run but it's what she shoots best. Rounds on target are better than a miss, regardless of caliber.
Due to hasmat shipping most places will not ship to Alaska, so handloads are the only good way to go, but that gives some flexibility. What should I be looking for metrics wise with dangerous games in both handgun and rifle, heavy for caliber, velocity, all copper? What projects work? Hollow points and soft points have a bad rap when it comes to both handgun and rifle due to expanding and not penetrating. Hard cast lead has been my go to but it's got problems. In handguns do the lehigh xtreme penetrators work and do they work at standard pressure or need +p. If not, would an all copper flat nose fmj be the best option.
How about long guns, I think an ar10 in 358 Winchester makes a good argument, light with a heavy cartridge. 45-70 lever actions do as well. Heavy 30-06 and 308 loads seem to perform well enough. How about 7mm rem mag? A 160-175grn hunting bullet like a Nosler partition or Barnes tsx looks promising but I have no experience with them. The woodleigh hydro solid in 7mm looks interesting as well, but it also might just icepick without causing major injuries unless hitting bone. I know this topic is not in this group's normal wheelhouse but I would like some input.