From the Facebook post located (at least at the time of this post) here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/PSPrimarySecondary/permalink/1109343995778766/
My original question:
Why is the Springfield XD (or "rebranded Croatian HS2000" as Prime referred to them) series of pistols not considered fit for duty or serious use? When I searched for documentation regarding the reliability of these pistols, I only come up with anecdotal accounts of malfunctions. I can come up with the same types of anecdotes for Glocks. What credible documentation or resources are available to steer a person away from purchasing an XD over a Glock? Over the years I have heard and read many statements, from people who have opinions that matter (to me) against the XD, but I need something more tangible than "because I said so" or "because (insert reputable firearm instructor's name) said so in a forum post that I can't find".
Synopsis of the comments (copied & pasted below):
None of the replies directed me to any official (or unofficial) scientific testing or records of failures in a controlled environment. There were, however, many anecdotes of failures that were personally observed. Aaron Cowan posted the best comment, IMHO, here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/PSP...=1110405732339259&comment_tracking={"tn":"R"}.
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Justin Waalkes Think there's a few threads on this already, but gonna stay in my lane
Like · Reply · 3 · June 20, 2016 at 7:20pm
Chad Halvorson Yes, please do a search first. Any questions that aren't covered in existing threads, we'll be more than happy to address or discuss.
Like · Reply · 2 · June 20, 2016 at 7:21pm
Jeffery Moskowite Searched Novice, the forum, and hit Google, but of course I don't think to search the Pro group... I'm looking at a few threads there now.
Like · Reply · 2 · June 20, 2016 at 7:23pm
Noah Tramposh I believe it's covered in the pro group
Like · Reply · 2 · June 20, 2016 at 7:23pm · Edited
Ian Schwartz Given the crappy nature of Facebook's search engine, I think on frequent-issues like this one, might it be useful to compile the info to a forum page? Just a thought. Kind of like when someone rolls in talking about 'muh condor', they can be directed to the gear dissection article on the website.
Like · Reply · 2 · June 20, 2016 at 7:34pm · Edited
John D Remf That specific rule is in the pinned post. 4a.
Like · Reply · 4 · June 20, 2016 at 7:39pm
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Noah Tramposh It is on the forum as well
Like · Reply · June 20, 2016 at 7:34pm
Ian Schwartz I'll take a look to see if I can find it. But if information is spread between various forum threads...kind of the same issue. .02 cents.
Like · Reply · 1 · June 20, 2016 at 7:36pm
Timothy Giblin Basically it had a rough start just like the gen 4 glocks and the MPs. Well smith more or less fixed the extractor, trigger bar, barrel and made a working gun. Glock fixed the RSAs on the glock (and other things) and it worked. The HS2000s had poorly tempered roll pins and would crack when dry fired, they never really did a recall and just made the new ones better (when relabeled XD) so that didn't help. But the real issue is the mags completely utterly suck. They are fragile as shit, the baseplates were crap ( I believe some are redesigned) the takedown lever tears up your left hand for many shooters due to location. But the big deal is the magazines suck and fail. My opinion from being on XDtalk, I'm sure others have opinions. Due to the size of the magwell there simply isn't room to make a magazine that doesn't suck.
Did I miss anything?
Like · Reply · 4 · June 20, 2016 at 7:42pm · Edited
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Kevin Danger Grip safety breaking and completely locking the gun up, usually with a live round in the chamber.
That's the big one I pass on to friends looking at XDs.
Like · Reply · 11 · June 20, 2016 at 7:53pm · Edited
Timothy Giblin Locking up the gun I haven't seen, but yeah the grip safeties too dang small to be reliably hit unlike a 1911. (and I've seen people pin 1911 safeties)
Like · Reply · 2 · June 20, 2016 at 7:52pm
Timothy Giblin The grip safety is a mechanical solution to "glock leg" which should have been called "serpa leg" and can be easily solved by teaching people proper handling procedures and getting rid of the serpa.
Like · Reply · 5 · June 20, 2016 at 7:53pm
Noah Tramposh You can assemble the gun wrong and it will go back together, without the worlds the most perfect grip on the gun it won't function...and we all know gunfights are never ideal, the grip safety locking the gun up is pretty common.
Like · Reply · 8 · June 20, 2016 at 8:07pm
Timothy Giblin I have an XD I use to practice stippling (it cost me $160 don't judge) how do I put it together wrong I need a laugh
Like · Reply · 1 · June 20, 2016 at 8:09pm · Edited
Nathan Martin They managed to try for the "best of both worlds" with their safety systems and ended up getting Herman Munster as a result. The mags do suck, but so does their spongy trigger. I got stuck carrying one for a few years and I can't think of one positive thing I liked about it. We experienced a number of reliability issues with them, and when the old admin left, those XDs were promptly traded in for gen 4 Glock 21. There have not been the complaints or the issues with the glocks that there were with the XDs, so it's not like it was just user error. Now, ours were in .45, and anecdotally I have heard that the 9/40 didn't have the same issues, but that was also from guys who only did light practice at the range with theirs and never ran them through any significant paces.
Like · Reply · 2 · June 20, 2016 at 8:46pm
Hariparkash Singh They're heavier than a Glock and have a higher bore axis
Like · Reply · 1 · June 21, 2016 at 3:09am
Timothy Giblin Higher bore axis is not intrinsically bad, its a feature. It allows different recoil, for weaker people it can actually be a good thing, many feel they are less beat up after a 600 round class with higher bore axis. IE HK
Like · Reply · 1 · June 21, 2016 at 8:36am
Lane Gries Personally, the XDM takedown lever is a huge selling point for me as it is an excellent place for your support thumb and I feel I have much more positive control vs an M&P or a glock.
Like · Reply · June 21, 2016 at 10:04am
Haji Modo When I was working the showroom I saw with my own eyeballs three different zuds that were broken and locked up like they were welded up. All three got send back to S.A. with rounds in the chamber because there was no other choice. All three were fixed...See More
Like · Reply · 2 · August 21, 2016 at 7:24pm
Haji Modo And "Gun Guys" like Zuds. That's enough to keep me away by itself.
Like · Reply · August 21, 2016 at 7:25pm
Hariparkash Singh Can't stand the "grip zone" lettering! Who in the hell isnt gonna know that is where you grip the pistol?
Like · Reply · 1 · August 21, 2016 at 8:30pm
Hariparkash Singh I think Kahr has a similar magazine suck issue. Kahr pistols are a good design, striker fired, well made, good ergos. But the damn mags are like they were made by Hi Point! The mag springs and followers cause the rounds to constantly nosedive inside the mag, which in turn causes FTF, stovepipe, double feed issues. Unfortunately I don't see the pistol being improved anytime soon. My PM9 was traded for a Glock 43 awhile ago and I haven't looked back since
Like · Reply · August 21, 2016 at 8:34pm · Edited
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Chris Hill I don't need evidence to tell you that the grip safety breaking and locking up the gun is bad.
Bad design is bad. Many of us know enough about how good guns work to know that this gun has design features that are Unnecessary and can cause issues.
Like · Reply · 9 · June 20, 2016 at 8:31pm
Timothy Giblin better statement than mine.
Like · Reply · 1 · June 20, 2016 at 8:49pm
Adam Wegner So what's different between that and the 1911? Machines break, you can't really account or that.
Like · Reply · June 22, 2016 at 1:34am
Chris Hill A broken grip safety on a 1911 doesn't prevent you from racking the slide.
Like · Reply · June 22, 2016 at 4:38am · Edited
Haji Modo When a Zud grip safety breaks it completely locks up the gun like it's permanently welded together.
Like · Reply · 1 · August 21, 2016 at 7:27pm
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Jeffery Moskowite I suppose I'm having a hard time articulating what I'm looking for. While the topic has been discussed previously many times, I'm still only finding individual anecdotes. Anecdotes from trusted sources are great and add to the body of knowledge, but hard data is always better. I suppose that the nature of our community and it's knowlege base makes it difficult to compile data that would be considered academically valid, but coming off of Prime's post here about countering derp in other groups: https://www.facebook.com/groups/NoviceSecondary/permalink/1108824959164003/ I suppose what I'm looking for is something more credible to the lay person. Something that would resonate with those who has never heard of the big-name instructors that we know and trust. If someone asks me about a CZ I can say "they've been adopted by NATO" and send them this link: http://cz-usa.com/.../cz-p-01-gets-nato-approval-the.../ AND tell them about Mike Pannone, his endorcement (of the P07 at least) and refer them to his CV which is posted several places to back up why someone should listen to him. Me? I'm a nobody, so telling someone that a gun design sucks means very little to a lot of people. Especially when there's a dozen other casual gun owners saying that particular gun is great and works 100% for them. So far I've found that the HS-2000 has an NSN number assigned to it and a claim that it passed the Autoloading Pistols for Police Officers NIJ Standard-0112.03 (or previous standard) but cannot find the documentation for that claim.
Matt PrimetoP&S - Primary & Secondary
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Like · Reply · Remove Preview · 6 · June 20, 2016 at 8:56pm
Lee Gullett Jeffrey a point to make.
I've not seen any wide scale testing by LE or fed agencies. Yes it has an NSN, a lot of shitty things do. Until that kind of wide spread testing happens the word of instructors you trust (I trust the dudes here, you may not) and anecdote from trusted individuals will likely be the best you get.
Now if I'm wrong (not uncommon) about the widespread testing I'd like to see the results.
Unlike · Reply · 6 · June 20, 2016 at 9:26pm · Edited
Haji Modo It's possible to say (being careful to avoid too wide a brush) that it doesn't fare well in comparison testing. No major law enforcement agency issues them as a pirmary, but the MnP and the Glock are. No significant military unit issues it as a duty gun, and the Glock is. It's still somewhat anecdotal, but if the Zud was a performer, it would be. As my homeboy Matt E says, "you can have 'as good as' or you can have the 'as'."
Unlike · Reply · 3 · August 21, 2016 at 7:34pm · Edited
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Daniel Parker Don't know if this will help....but here goes.....
The XD. 45 was my first pistol a little over 8 or 9 years ago.... And my experience is as follows..... I am not a trained spec ops guy.... Hell I'm barely a weekend warrior but i noticed that most people who have negative connotations/reviews are the same people who have the same views about 1911s i have shot many striker fire and hammered pistols i noticed that almost every gun tries to mimic the glock since it's arrival on the market. The exceptions are sigs FNH and XD.... Notice the XD comes from the mother company Springfield Armory who specialize in two things... The m14 and 1911s.... The XD is modeled after the 1911 the barrel sits high outside of the webbing of your hand where the glock barrel sits almost in your palm.....most glock guys I've talked to have never shot 1911s or had trouble controlling the recoil..... I shot an XD then 1911s and found the transition to be easy the only real complication i had with an XD. 45 was that they are big in the grips but when you double stack 13 .45 cal. Bullets you expect some bulk i had no issues with my XD i only parted with it because of financial strife and now have a new one.....in closing when i was forced to change to a glock due to my job..... Security.... I noticed it took some getting used to all weapons have positive and negative connotations don't knock till u try it i say.... I made that mistake with the s&w sdve. 40 turned out to be a decent gun for what it is 320 out the door here at the local academy good starter gun for security officers
Like · Reply · June 20, 2016 at 9:25pm
Mike Phillips Seeing as Springfeild didn't actually make the XD... I mean the damn slide still says Croatia on it
Like · Reply · 2 · June 21, 2016 at 3:49am
Chris Hill That did not help. That post was pure speculation based on limited information and some of it was flat out wrong.
Like · Reply · 2 · June 21, 2016 at 4:27am
Daniel Parker Bill Killgore.... The high sitting barrel and beavertail safety for starts also i found that the feel of the gun was more in tune with a 1911 bar the admittedly larger grip frame for the double stack mags
Like · Reply · June 21, 2016 at 1:08pm
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Matt Prime We also have a large number of instructors here. Multiply that number by how many classes they hold multiply that by how many students and that's a lot of pistols. If we take the top used pistol, which is Glock and compare the Glock failure rates to XD models - XD wins for more failures per gun.
Unlike · Reply · 19 · June 20, 2016 at 9:26pm
Wayne Fisher This past weekend we had a smaller than average class, 14 shooters x ~1,000 each = only two guns that had to be pulled off the line. A 3" Kimber that made it less than 25 rounds and an XD that had a roll pin walk out before lunch.
Unlike · Reply · 10 · June 21, 2016 at 3:45am
Wayne Fisher
Unlike · Reply · 6 · June 21, 2016 at 3:45am
Haji Modo Just put a piece of tape on it. It's just a pin, anyway.
Like · Reply · 1 · August 21, 2016 at 7:36pm
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Daniel Parker I would beg the question what kinds of failures and how many of the failures were bad ammo or operator error but I see your point
Like · Reply · 3 · June 20, 2016 at 9:27pm
Timothy Giblin If that operator error is missing the safety, does it matter? If they didn't have the grip safety it would have gone bang.
I bet its mostly that, and bad mags.
Like · Reply · 3 · June 20, 2016 at 9:59pm
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Raymond King Owned an XD 45 for a few years. Side by side, it would malfunction with the same box of ammo my M&P ate like it was nothing. Couple that with the build up of carbon in the loaded chamber indicator that made it permanently stay "loaded" and it was put on the short list for a new home.
Like · Reply · 1 · June 20, 2016 at 9:32pm
Haji Modo Hadn't seen that with the lci, but I can certainly see it happening. Thanks for mentioning that.
Like · Reply · 1 · August 21, 2016 at 7:38pm
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Matt Jensen Every time I play with an XD I feel like I'm going to break it...
Like · Reply · June 20, 2016 at 9:53pm
Lee Gullett Matt please read the pinned post. This adds zero value to the conversation.
Like · Reply · 2 · June 20, 2016 at 10:35pm
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Tom McEnroe I can go on about reliability, the God awful grip safety, or the fact that they are an absolutely nightmare to disassemble but I have one that takes the cake. I had an XD 45 full size drop and fall 18-24 inches and set the round off that was chambered. Springfield refused to return my calls after it happened and that is a no go for me.
Like · Reply · 14 · June 20, 2016 at 10:01pm
Richard Sandstrom dayum
Like · Reply · 1 · June 20, 2016 at 10:02pm
Matt Jensen Holy shit dude! Did you send them this picture?
Like · Reply · 2 · June 20, 2016 at 10:03pm
Tom McEnroe My lawyer did. Since there wasn't a death no one really pushed it. Including my lawyer.
Like · Reply · 1 · June 20, 2016 at 10:04pm
Matt Jensen Glad you are ok man! How well did it heal/ is healing?
Like · Reply · June 20, 2016 at 10:07pm
Tom McEnroe This was back in 2010. Took about a year to get back to about 90%. Now all you see is scars and really jacked up muscle placement. (Got some deep scar tissue that altered y muscle and how it flexes). It doesn't slow me down by any means and I only really have a disdain for HS products.
Like · Reply · 1 · June 20, 2016 at 10:09pm
Matt Jensen That's insane man. This is the reason I am nervous about trigger jobs and cheap guns.
Like · Reply · 4 · June 20, 2016 at 10:14pm
Tom McEnroe Yes sir. I'm with you on that one
Like · Reply · June 20, 2016 at 10:17pm
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Chris Hill Cite that there are no major PDs that allow them for on duty use. Cite that the design makes shooting one handed or weak hand more difficult (grip safety). Internet derp fighting isn't really for the derper it's to openly counter the derp logically do that others can identify that there is controversy and hopefully side with the guy that isn't saying shit like "mines flawless right outta the box" or "200 rounds and no jams"
Like · Reply · 2 · June 21, 2016 at 4:23am
Kyle Sowards I am not the end-all-be-all of firearms usage or manipulations but having to have a perfect grip in order to rack the slide is a no go for me when you take in to account one handed manipulations, especially with your non-dominant hand and I can't guarantee that I will fully depress the grip safety in those situations. I also do not like the placement of the loaded chamber indicator nor the cocking indicator, two more things on the gun for me to stab myself with when racking the slide or ensuring slide battery. I have never bought one after messing with students guns so I can not speak to durability but the design itself is less than ideal for me.
Like · Reply · 2 · June 21, 2016 at 8:46am
Roberto Hill Jr.
Like · Reply · 3 · June 21, 2016 at 9:43am
Matt Prime Read the pinned post. This isn't theoretical.
Like · Reply · 10 · June 21, 2016 at 9:45am
Tim Shaffer there is no theory about it. Has been proven time and time again.
Like · Reply · 5 · June 21, 2016 at 9:57am
Timothy Giblin Or the dozens of times I've seen people miss it in person
Like · Reply · 3 · June 21, 2016 at 12:21pm
Chuck Haggard 11b.) Keep the meme’s to a minimum.
12b.) Do not troll. If you want to disagree that’s fine but bring cogent facts and a good counterpoint.
Like · Reply · August 21, 2016 at 8:47pm
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Tom McEnroe It's not exactly theoretical. It's pretty much fact that it causes issues.
Like · Reply · 3 · June 21, 2016 at 9:55am
Brad Woodard I've had a couple come in that broke or ejected the striker retaining pin (the roll pin shown earlier in the thread).
Original LC9 ruger is the same design, and I've had those come in broke too. It was removed when they went to S model.
Our SO has/had the XD on the approval list for duty guns, but I think I've managed to convince most of the noobies not to go that way. This is an issue I was ignorant of until joining here. Keep up the good work.
Like · Reply · 2 · June 21, 2016 at 10:21am
Timothy Giblin Got a timeline on this? I was under the impression they fixed the roll pins (hardening, not the design)
Like · Reply · June 21, 2016 at 11:45am
Brad Woodard Quite possible. One in 2014, one in 2015, but age of firearm unknown
Like · Reply · June 21, 2016 at 11:54am
Timothy Giblin I remember in 2007 people were buying replacement pins pre-emptively at hardware stores and replacing them...unsure on specifics. But they were breaking under dry fire quite frequently. (Xdtalk was my first gun forum irony I carried a xd for 6 days before I realized it was crap)
Like · Reply · June 21, 2016 at 11:56am · Edited
Brad Woodard These broke live-fire. I put powder river pins in them.
Like · Reply · 1 · June 21, 2016 at 11:57am
Brad Woodard I guess either my bitching or the shitty products made the point... I have no doubt it was the bad guns
Found out Saturday that the SO has shed (sold) their XD guns. Good riddance.
Like · Reply · 1 · June 27, 2016 at 2:38pm · Edited
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Jim Santoro It's absolutely theoretical...
...if one's rhetorical model is denying the existence of matters of public record immediately prior to putting fingers in one's ears and chanting "lalalalalalalalalalala."
Like · Reply · 10 · June 21, 2016 at 10:42pm · Edited
Michael Orr Long and short of it is they don't hold up, some people reporting excessive wear leading to consistent malfunctions in about 5k to 10k rounds...that unacceptable for a duty weapon. The pins holding it together can snap and cause issue, to the point I've seen videos for guys demonstrating what to do if your xd shits a pin in a gun fight. The grip safety can cause the weapon to not fire if the grip isn't perfect on the weapon. Had this happen on both draws and firing from awkward positions. I also discovered that sa doesn't want you to full service the weapon yourself. They won't sell extractors as apparently they need to be fitted and recommend all work beyond the cleaning of the weapon be done by them. Lastly, I personally think they are too heavy and cost too much for what you get, and their grips suck.
Like · Reply · 2 · June 21, 2016 at 11:43am
Paul Nelson I have been caring a xdmod2 45acp. For a about a year. I've had no quality issues. Over a thousand rounds through it with no malfunctions. For a inexpensive gun.
Like · Reply · June 22, 2016 at 12:55am
Matt Prime Sample of one.
Like · Reply · 3 · June 22, 2016 at 12:55am
Matt Prime A thousand rounds is a drop in the bucket.
Like · Reply · 5 · June 22, 2016 at 12:55am
Paul Nelson I know I have about ten thousand through my hk usp
Like · Reply · June 22, 2016 at 12:57am
Paul Nelson I just bought the Xd because it was only 450. It may not be as high quality as my sig saur or heckler & koch pistols but it's a good gun. And more accurate than a glock 30.
Like · Reply · June 22, 2016 at 1:21am
Frank Thomson And a glock 19, the most issued and tested pistol in modern history, sells for $399. But I don't buy pistols based on price.
Like · Reply · 3 · June 22, 2016 at 2:08am
Chris Hill Paul the xd is over priced. Before the SA roll mark was added they sold in the us for 200 and under. You bought a bad gun. It's ok. It happens sometimes. Just don't buy anymore or recommend them to anyone since you are currently getting the correct information.
Like · Reply · 2 · June 22, 2016 at 4:36am
Stu Purcell If price is the reason why not glock or cz P0 series, they're the same price or better.
Like · Reply · June 22, 2016 at 6:56am
Paul Nelson I bought it because I didn't want. To leave my sig p229 locked in my car while I'm at work. I am thinking about buying a glock 23 or glock 19.
Like · Reply · June 22, 2016 at 8:33am
Haji Modo I bought both my 19's used and unfired for $250 ea. Yes I practically stole them, but deals are there if ya look. The 19 is the most purchased pistol in the world.
Like · Reply · 1 · August 21, 2016 at 7:50pm
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Chad Mercer Try doing disabled manipulations with an XD... Non-starter
This dude has a strong case of confirmation bias.
Like · Reply · 10 · June 22, 2016 at 3:59am
Jimmy Krause I've had my range now for 12 years. With the CWP, saftey, and novice classes I hold.... I keep 20 range pistols for people use, rent ect.......
I started with police program refurbished gen 1 and 2 Glock 19/17's, and added XD, XDM 9mm's over a 2 year period, along with some personal pistols, revolvers, ect. so there was a few more choices then a or b if they wanted to explore.
The XD and XDM's out of the gate were finiky with my range loads. New shooters had issues limp wristing them which was an easy enough fix, but the damning factor was service life. Weak primer strikes around 5k rounds, broken firing pins and extractors, replacing trigger and striker springs, all while the Glock's only issue was the inability to run cheaper hardcast lead target fodder without a barrel replacement.
After my 4 year experiment with the Spingfield imports (and don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of the brand, I own 9 stock and custom Springer' 1911's, and 4 M1A's).... I ditched them cheap for M&P pro's and haven't looked back
I've since added 4 Canik TP9SF's (non decocker models...) to replace some G17's that were shot out as an experiment on the cheap end, and have nothing but good to say about them. There trigger is about the best I've ever felt in a stock striker fired pistol, they're accurate, balls out relible and rugged. New shooters take to them like a duck to water. A couple are over the 8k round mark with no issues, and everyone that's shot them usually ends up getting one, even some of my old salts.......
It takes allot for a guy like me to recomend something from Century Arms over Springer', but the proof is in the performance. If you like the XD/XDM, chances are you don't shoot it enough, or shoot it seriously. It's price point and the fact that being from Springer makes it an easy sell for the blunt skulled stubborn individual who's looking to make the leap into the world of tupperware, but the ammount of used ones on the gun auction sights should tell you people discover their shortcomings quickly!
Unlike · Reply · 3 · June 22, 2016 at 8:30am
Chris Hill I mean for rental guns why not replace a few glocks with caniks he said it was as an experiment
Like · Reply · June 22, 2016 at 11:14am
Jimmy Krause It was cost, $280-$400 police trade in's are getting harder to find for range guns..... but i'd trust a Canik as much as i do a Glock, parts availability is my big issue with Canik, I've never had to rebuild one yet, but there's nothing in aftermarket barrels, no replacement frames available, ect.....
Like · Reply · 1 · June 22, 2016 at 1:37pm
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Aaron Cowan I keep track of failures in all classes; currently the XD reigns supreme with 19 over the past 4 years. This accounts for any failure that could not be remedied by immediate or remedial action; examples include; grip safety failing to reset, grip safety failing to engage, broken guide rod, broken striker, fractured chamber wall, fractured striker face wall, cracked slide, trigger shoe failure and on and on. "XD" covers XD, XDmod 2, XDS and XDM. The counting continues.
Like · Reply · 7 · June 22, 2016 at 11:26am
Chris Hill No Aaron that doesn't count because confirmation bias and scientific method!!! Where's muh control group! How do we know it's not user error! Trends don't equal science!!!!!!
Like · Reply · 1 · June 22, 2016 at 11:34am
Aaron Cowan As much as I love science, sometimes anecdotal is as good as it gets due to uncontrollable variables.
Unlike · Reply · 6 · June 22, 2016 at 11:36am
Chris Hill The only time I see people discount anecdotal evidence from a good source is when it doesn't fit their narrative
Like · Reply · 3 · June 22, 2016 at 11:37am
Zach McWilliams I love the word anecdotal. That's all.
Like · Reply · June 22, 2016 at 2:40pm
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Jeff Quinney My 6 year old 3.8" XDM .40 has about 5k through it, at least 3k as a rental gun.
No serious issues or consistent malfunctions EXCEPT the striker retainer pin snapped in half around 3-4k in.
I won't recommend them or carry it, but that's my experience with mine. It's just sat in the bottom of an old range bag for years now.
Like · Reply · June 22, 2016 at 1:19pm
Haji Modo We sent back three with live rounds in the chamber where the gun was locked up like a vault. There was no other option.
Like · Reply · 3 · June 22, 2016 at 2:47pm
Chris Hill Couldn't you just hit the exposed striker with a hammer and get it to just be a stuck case
Like · Reply · 2 · June 22, 2016 at 2:59pm
Chad Halvorson Saw that twice myself as well with XD pistols used by a single agency.
Like · Reply · June 22, 2016 at 7:29pm
Haji Modo Chris, we considered it for a moment (we had a bullet trap ) but didn't want to break it more. Since there was no trigger movement at all we figured the striker safety wouldn't allow it. Don't know if that woulda worked or not in the end, but the guns were so non operational at that point they might as well be dewats.
Like · Reply · August 21, 2016 at 8:05pm
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Noah Tramposh ^thats a pretty well known issue with the xd.
Like · Reply · 4 · June 22, 2016 at 2:56pm
Matt Prime Dave
Like · Reply · 2 · June 27, 2016 at 9:47pm
Dave Maxwell Patrick Rota
Like · Reply · August 21, 2016 at 7:12pm
My original question:
Why is the Springfield XD (or "rebranded Croatian HS2000" as Prime referred to them) series of pistols not considered fit for duty or serious use? When I searched for documentation regarding the reliability of these pistols, I only come up with anecdotal accounts of malfunctions. I can come up with the same types of anecdotes for Glocks. What credible documentation or resources are available to steer a person away from purchasing an XD over a Glock? Over the years I have heard and read many statements, from people who have opinions that matter (to me) against the XD, but I need something more tangible than "because I said so" or "because (insert reputable firearm instructor's name) said so in a forum post that I can't find".
Synopsis of the comments (copied & pasted below):
None of the replies directed me to any official (or unofficial) scientific testing or records of failures in a controlled environment. There were, however, many anecdotes of failures that were personally observed. Aaron Cowan posted the best comment, IMHO, here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/PSP...=1110405732339259&comment_tracking={"tn":"R"}.
"I keep track of failures in all classes; currently the XD reigns supreme with 19 over the past 4 years. This accounts for any failure that could not be remedied by immediate or remedial action; examples include; grip safety failing to reset, grip safety failing to engage, broken guide rod, broken striker, fractured chamber wall, fractured striker face wall, cracked slide, trigger shoe failure and on and on. "XD" covers XD, XDmod 2, XDS and XDM. The counting continues.
"As much as I love science, sometimes anecdotal is as good as it gets due to uncontrollable variables."
- Aaron Cowan
- Aaron Cowan
1212
Comments
Justin Waalkes Think there's a few threads on this already, but gonna stay in my lane
Like · Reply · 3 · June 20, 2016 at 7:20pm
Chad Halvorson Yes, please do a search first. Any questions that aren't covered in existing threads, we'll be more than happy to address or discuss.
Like · Reply · 2 · June 20, 2016 at 7:21pm
Jeffery Moskowite Searched Novice, the forum, and hit Google, but of course I don't think to search the Pro group... I'm looking at a few threads there now.
Like · Reply · 2 · June 20, 2016 at 7:23pm
Noah Tramposh I believe it's covered in the pro group
Like · Reply · 2 · June 20, 2016 at 7:23pm · Edited
Ian Schwartz Given the crappy nature of Facebook's search engine, I think on frequent-issues like this one, might it be useful to compile the info to a forum page? Just a thought. Kind of like when someone rolls in talking about 'muh condor', they can be directed to the gear dissection article on the website.
Like · Reply · 2 · June 20, 2016 at 7:34pm · Edited
John D Remf That specific rule is in the pinned post. 4a.
Like · Reply · 4 · June 20, 2016 at 7:39pm
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Noah Tramposh It is on the forum as well
Like · Reply · June 20, 2016 at 7:34pm
Ian Schwartz I'll take a look to see if I can find it. But if information is spread between various forum threads...kind of the same issue. .02 cents.
Like · Reply · 1 · June 20, 2016 at 7:36pm
Timothy Giblin Basically it had a rough start just like the gen 4 glocks and the MPs. Well smith more or less fixed the extractor, trigger bar, barrel and made a working gun. Glock fixed the RSAs on the glock (and other things) and it worked. The HS2000s had poorly tempered roll pins and would crack when dry fired, they never really did a recall and just made the new ones better (when relabeled XD) so that didn't help. But the real issue is the mags completely utterly suck. They are fragile as shit, the baseplates were crap ( I believe some are redesigned) the takedown lever tears up your left hand for many shooters due to location. But the big deal is the magazines suck and fail. My opinion from being on XDtalk, I'm sure others have opinions. Due to the size of the magwell there simply isn't room to make a magazine that doesn't suck.
Did I miss anything?
Like · Reply · 4 · June 20, 2016 at 7:42pm · Edited
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Kevin Danger Grip safety breaking and completely locking the gun up, usually with a live round in the chamber.
That's the big one I pass on to friends looking at XDs.
Like · Reply · 11 · June 20, 2016 at 7:53pm · Edited
Timothy Giblin Locking up the gun I haven't seen, but yeah the grip safeties too dang small to be reliably hit unlike a 1911. (and I've seen people pin 1911 safeties)
Like · Reply · 2 · June 20, 2016 at 7:52pm
Timothy Giblin The grip safety is a mechanical solution to "glock leg" which should have been called "serpa leg" and can be easily solved by teaching people proper handling procedures and getting rid of the serpa.
Like · Reply · 5 · June 20, 2016 at 7:53pm
Noah Tramposh You can assemble the gun wrong and it will go back together, without the worlds the most perfect grip on the gun it won't function...and we all know gunfights are never ideal, the grip safety locking the gun up is pretty common.
Like · Reply · 8 · June 20, 2016 at 8:07pm
Timothy Giblin I have an XD I use to practice stippling (it cost me $160 don't judge) how do I put it together wrong I need a laugh
Like · Reply · 1 · June 20, 2016 at 8:09pm · Edited
Nathan Martin They managed to try for the "best of both worlds" with their safety systems and ended up getting Herman Munster as a result. The mags do suck, but so does their spongy trigger. I got stuck carrying one for a few years and I can't think of one positive thing I liked about it. We experienced a number of reliability issues with them, and when the old admin left, those XDs were promptly traded in for gen 4 Glock 21. There have not been the complaints or the issues with the glocks that there were with the XDs, so it's not like it was just user error. Now, ours were in .45, and anecdotally I have heard that the 9/40 didn't have the same issues, but that was also from guys who only did light practice at the range with theirs and never ran them through any significant paces.
Like · Reply · 2 · June 20, 2016 at 8:46pm
Hariparkash Singh They're heavier than a Glock and have a higher bore axis
Like · Reply · 1 · June 21, 2016 at 3:09am
Timothy Giblin Higher bore axis is not intrinsically bad, its a feature. It allows different recoil, for weaker people it can actually be a good thing, many feel they are less beat up after a 600 round class with higher bore axis. IE HK
Like · Reply · 1 · June 21, 2016 at 8:36am
Lane Gries Personally, the XDM takedown lever is a huge selling point for me as it is an excellent place for your support thumb and I feel I have much more positive control vs an M&P or a glock.
Like · Reply · June 21, 2016 at 10:04am
Haji Modo When I was working the showroom I saw with my own eyeballs three different zuds that were broken and locked up like they were welded up. All three got send back to S.A. with rounds in the chamber because there was no other choice. All three were fixed...See More
Like · Reply · 2 · August 21, 2016 at 7:24pm
Haji Modo And "Gun Guys" like Zuds. That's enough to keep me away by itself.
Like · Reply · August 21, 2016 at 7:25pm
Hariparkash Singh Can't stand the "grip zone" lettering! Who in the hell isnt gonna know that is where you grip the pistol?
Like · Reply · 1 · August 21, 2016 at 8:30pm
Hariparkash Singh I think Kahr has a similar magazine suck issue. Kahr pistols are a good design, striker fired, well made, good ergos. But the damn mags are like they were made by Hi Point! The mag springs and followers cause the rounds to constantly nosedive inside the mag, which in turn causes FTF, stovepipe, double feed issues. Unfortunately I don't see the pistol being improved anytime soon. My PM9 was traded for a Glock 43 awhile ago and I haven't looked back since
Like · Reply · August 21, 2016 at 8:34pm · Edited
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Chris Hill I don't need evidence to tell you that the grip safety breaking and locking up the gun is bad.
Bad design is bad. Many of us know enough about how good guns work to know that this gun has design features that are Unnecessary and can cause issues.
Like · Reply · 9 · June 20, 2016 at 8:31pm
Timothy Giblin better statement than mine.
Like · Reply · 1 · June 20, 2016 at 8:49pm
Adam Wegner So what's different between that and the 1911? Machines break, you can't really account or that.
Like · Reply · June 22, 2016 at 1:34am
Chris Hill A broken grip safety on a 1911 doesn't prevent you from racking the slide.
Like · Reply · June 22, 2016 at 4:38am · Edited
Haji Modo When a Zud grip safety breaks it completely locks up the gun like it's permanently welded together.
Like · Reply · 1 · August 21, 2016 at 7:27pm
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Jeffery Moskowite I suppose I'm having a hard time articulating what I'm looking for. While the topic has been discussed previously many times, I'm still only finding individual anecdotes. Anecdotes from trusted sources are great and add to the body of knowledge, but hard data is always better. I suppose that the nature of our community and it's knowlege base makes it difficult to compile data that would be considered academically valid, but coming off of Prime's post here about countering derp in other groups: https://www.facebook.com/groups/NoviceSecondary/permalink/1108824959164003/ I suppose what I'm looking for is something more credible to the lay person. Something that would resonate with those who has never heard of the big-name instructors that we know and trust. If someone asks me about a CZ I can say "they've been adopted by NATO" and send them this link: http://cz-usa.com/.../cz-p-01-gets-nato-approval-the.../ AND tell them about Mike Pannone, his endorcement (of the P07 at least) and refer them to his CV which is posted several places to back up why someone should listen to him. Me? I'm a nobody, so telling someone that a gun design sucks means very little to a lot of people. Especially when there's a dozen other casual gun owners saying that particular gun is great and works 100% for them. So far I've found that the HS-2000 has an NSN number assigned to it and a claim that it passed the Autoloading Pistols for Police Officers NIJ Standard-0112.03 (or previous standard) but cannot find the documentation for that claim.
Matt PrimetoP&S - Primary & Secondary
June 19, 2016 ·
The article Wicks & I wrote about social media and the truth got me thinking about all of the groups that want to help but are overrun by people who just want t...
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Like · Reply · Remove Preview · 6 · June 20, 2016 at 8:56pm
Lee Gullett Jeffrey a point to make.
I've not seen any wide scale testing by LE or fed agencies. Yes it has an NSN, a lot of shitty things do. Until that kind of wide spread testing happens the word of instructors you trust (I trust the dudes here, you may not) and anecdote from trusted individuals will likely be the best you get.
Now if I'm wrong (not uncommon) about the widespread testing I'd like to see the results.
Unlike · Reply · 6 · June 20, 2016 at 9:26pm · Edited
Haji Modo It's possible to say (being careful to avoid too wide a brush) that it doesn't fare well in comparison testing. No major law enforcement agency issues them as a pirmary, but the MnP and the Glock are. No significant military unit issues it as a duty gun, and the Glock is. It's still somewhat anecdotal, but if the Zud was a performer, it would be. As my homeboy Matt E says, "you can have 'as good as' or you can have the 'as'."
Unlike · Reply · 3 · August 21, 2016 at 7:34pm · Edited
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Daniel Parker Don't know if this will help....but here goes.....
The XD. 45 was my first pistol a little over 8 or 9 years ago.... And my experience is as follows..... I am not a trained spec ops guy.... Hell I'm barely a weekend warrior but i noticed that most people who have negative connotations/reviews are the same people who have the same views about 1911s i have shot many striker fire and hammered pistols i noticed that almost every gun tries to mimic the glock since it's arrival on the market. The exceptions are sigs FNH and XD.... Notice the XD comes from the mother company Springfield Armory who specialize in two things... The m14 and 1911s.... The XD is modeled after the 1911 the barrel sits high outside of the webbing of your hand where the glock barrel sits almost in your palm.....most glock guys I've talked to have never shot 1911s or had trouble controlling the recoil..... I shot an XD then 1911s and found the transition to be easy the only real complication i had with an XD. 45 was that they are big in the grips but when you double stack 13 .45 cal. Bullets you expect some bulk i had no issues with my XD i only parted with it because of financial strife and now have a new one.....in closing when i was forced to change to a glock due to my job..... Security.... I noticed it took some getting used to all weapons have positive and negative connotations don't knock till u try it i say.... I made that mistake with the s&w sdve. 40 turned out to be a decent gun for what it is 320 out the door here at the local academy good starter gun for security officers
Like · Reply · June 20, 2016 at 9:25pm
Mike Phillips Seeing as Springfeild didn't actually make the XD... I mean the damn slide still says Croatia on it
Like · Reply · 2 · June 21, 2016 at 3:49am
Chris Hill That did not help. That post was pure speculation based on limited information and some of it was flat out wrong.
Like · Reply · 2 · June 21, 2016 at 4:27am
Daniel Parker Bill Killgore.... The high sitting barrel and beavertail safety for starts also i found that the feel of the gun was more in tune with a 1911 bar the admittedly larger grip frame for the double stack mags
Like · Reply · June 21, 2016 at 1:08pm
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Matt Prime We also have a large number of instructors here. Multiply that number by how many classes they hold multiply that by how many students and that's a lot of pistols. If we take the top used pistol, which is Glock and compare the Glock failure rates to XD models - XD wins for more failures per gun.
Unlike · Reply · 19 · June 20, 2016 at 9:26pm
Wayne Fisher This past weekend we had a smaller than average class, 14 shooters x ~1,000 each = only two guns that had to be pulled off the line. A 3" Kimber that made it less than 25 rounds and an XD that had a roll pin walk out before lunch.
Unlike · Reply · 10 · June 21, 2016 at 3:45am
Wayne Fisher
Unlike · Reply · 6 · June 21, 2016 at 3:45am
Haji Modo Just put a piece of tape on it. It's just a pin, anyway.
Like · Reply · 1 · August 21, 2016 at 7:36pm
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Daniel Parker I would beg the question what kinds of failures and how many of the failures were bad ammo or operator error but I see your point
Like · Reply · 3 · June 20, 2016 at 9:27pm
Timothy Giblin If that operator error is missing the safety, does it matter? If they didn't have the grip safety it would have gone bang.
I bet its mostly that, and bad mags.
Like · Reply · 3 · June 20, 2016 at 9:59pm
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Raymond King Owned an XD 45 for a few years. Side by side, it would malfunction with the same box of ammo my M&P ate like it was nothing. Couple that with the build up of carbon in the loaded chamber indicator that made it permanently stay "loaded" and it was put on the short list for a new home.
Like · Reply · 1 · June 20, 2016 at 9:32pm
Haji Modo Hadn't seen that with the lci, but I can certainly see it happening. Thanks for mentioning that.
Like · Reply · 1 · August 21, 2016 at 7:38pm
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Matt Jensen Every time I play with an XD I feel like I'm going to break it...
Like · Reply · June 20, 2016 at 9:53pm
Lee Gullett Matt please read the pinned post. This adds zero value to the conversation.
Like · Reply · 2 · June 20, 2016 at 10:35pm
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Tom McEnroe I can go on about reliability, the God awful grip safety, or the fact that they are an absolutely nightmare to disassemble but I have one that takes the cake. I had an XD 45 full size drop and fall 18-24 inches and set the round off that was chambered. Springfield refused to return my calls after it happened and that is a no go for me.
Like · Reply · 14 · June 20, 2016 at 10:01pm
Richard Sandstrom dayum
Like · Reply · 1 · June 20, 2016 at 10:02pm
Matt Jensen Holy shit dude! Did you send them this picture?
Like · Reply · 2 · June 20, 2016 at 10:03pm
Tom McEnroe My lawyer did. Since there wasn't a death no one really pushed it. Including my lawyer.
Like · Reply · 1 · June 20, 2016 at 10:04pm
Matt Jensen Glad you are ok man! How well did it heal/ is healing?
Like · Reply · June 20, 2016 at 10:07pm
Tom McEnroe This was back in 2010. Took about a year to get back to about 90%. Now all you see is scars and really jacked up muscle placement. (Got some deep scar tissue that altered y muscle and how it flexes). It doesn't slow me down by any means and I only really have a disdain for HS products.
Like · Reply · 1 · June 20, 2016 at 10:09pm
Matt Jensen That's insane man. This is the reason I am nervous about trigger jobs and cheap guns.
Like · Reply · 4 · June 20, 2016 at 10:14pm
Tom McEnroe Yes sir. I'm with you on that one
Like · Reply · June 20, 2016 at 10:17pm
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Chris Hill Cite that there are no major PDs that allow them for on duty use. Cite that the design makes shooting one handed or weak hand more difficult (grip safety). Internet derp fighting isn't really for the derper it's to openly counter the derp logically do that others can identify that there is controversy and hopefully side with the guy that isn't saying shit like "mines flawless right outta the box" or "200 rounds and no jams"
Like · Reply · 2 · June 21, 2016 at 4:23am
Kyle Sowards I am not the end-all-be-all of firearms usage or manipulations but having to have a perfect grip in order to rack the slide is a no go for me when you take in to account one handed manipulations, especially with your non-dominant hand and I can't guarantee that I will fully depress the grip safety in those situations. I also do not like the placement of the loaded chamber indicator nor the cocking indicator, two more things on the gun for me to stab myself with when racking the slide or ensuring slide battery. I have never bought one after messing with students guns so I can not speak to durability but the design itself is less than ideal for me.
Like · Reply · 2 · June 21, 2016 at 8:46am
Roberto Hill Jr.
Like · Reply · 3 · June 21, 2016 at 9:43am
Matt Prime Read the pinned post. This isn't theoretical.
Like · Reply · 10 · June 21, 2016 at 9:45am
Tim Shaffer there is no theory about it. Has been proven time and time again.
Like · Reply · 5 · June 21, 2016 at 9:57am
Timothy Giblin Or the dozens of times I've seen people miss it in person
Like · Reply · 3 · June 21, 2016 at 12:21pm
Chuck Haggard 11b.) Keep the meme’s to a minimum.
12b.) Do not troll. If you want to disagree that’s fine but bring cogent facts and a good counterpoint.
Like · Reply · August 21, 2016 at 8:47pm
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Tom McEnroe It's not exactly theoretical. It's pretty much fact that it causes issues.
Like · Reply · 3 · June 21, 2016 at 9:55am
Brad Woodard I've had a couple come in that broke or ejected the striker retaining pin (the roll pin shown earlier in the thread).
Original LC9 ruger is the same design, and I've had those come in broke too. It was removed when they went to S model.
Our SO has/had the XD on the approval list for duty guns, but I think I've managed to convince most of the noobies not to go that way. This is an issue I was ignorant of until joining here. Keep up the good work.
Like · Reply · 2 · June 21, 2016 at 10:21am
Timothy Giblin Got a timeline on this? I was under the impression they fixed the roll pins (hardening, not the design)
Like · Reply · June 21, 2016 at 11:45am
Brad Woodard Quite possible. One in 2014, one in 2015, but age of firearm unknown
Like · Reply · June 21, 2016 at 11:54am
Timothy Giblin I remember in 2007 people were buying replacement pins pre-emptively at hardware stores and replacing them...unsure on specifics. But they were breaking under dry fire quite frequently. (Xdtalk was my first gun forum irony I carried a xd for 6 days before I realized it was crap)
Like · Reply · June 21, 2016 at 11:56am · Edited
Brad Woodard These broke live-fire. I put powder river pins in them.
Like · Reply · 1 · June 21, 2016 at 11:57am
Brad Woodard I guess either my bitching or the shitty products made the point... I have no doubt it was the bad guns
Found out Saturday that the SO has shed (sold) their XD guns. Good riddance.
Like · Reply · 1 · June 27, 2016 at 2:38pm · Edited
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Jim Santoro It's absolutely theoretical...
...if one's rhetorical model is denying the existence of matters of public record immediately prior to putting fingers in one's ears and chanting "lalalalalalalalalalala."
Like · Reply · 10 · June 21, 2016 at 10:42pm · Edited
Michael Orr Long and short of it is they don't hold up, some people reporting excessive wear leading to consistent malfunctions in about 5k to 10k rounds...that unacceptable for a duty weapon. The pins holding it together can snap and cause issue, to the point I've seen videos for guys demonstrating what to do if your xd shits a pin in a gun fight. The grip safety can cause the weapon to not fire if the grip isn't perfect on the weapon. Had this happen on both draws and firing from awkward positions. I also discovered that sa doesn't want you to full service the weapon yourself. They won't sell extractors as apparently they need to be fitted and recommend all work beyond the cleaning of the weapon be done by them. Lastly, I personally think they are too heavy and cost too much for what you get, and their grips suck.
Like · Reply · 2 · June 21, 2016 at 11:43am
Paul Nelson I have been caring a xdmod2 45acp. For a about a year. I've had no quality issues. Over a thousand rounds through it with no malfunctions. For a inexpensive gun.
Like · Reply · June 22, 2016 at 12:55am
Matt Prime Sample of one.
Like · Reply · 3 · June 22, 2016 at 12:55am
Matt Prime A thousand rounds is a drop in the bucket.
Like · Reply · 5 · June 22, 2016 at 12:55am
Paul Nelson I know I have about ten thousand through my hk usp
Like · Reply · June 22, 2016 at 12:57am
Paul Nelson I just bought the Xd because it was only 450. It may not be as high quality as my sig saur or heckler & koch pistols but it's a good gun. And more accurate than a glock 30.
Like · Reply · June 22, 2016 at 1:21am
Frank Thomson And a glock 19, the most issued and tested pistol in modern history, sells for $399. But I don't buy pistols based on price.
Like · Reply · 3 · June 22, 2016 at 2:08am
Chris Hill Paul the xd is over priced. Before the SA roll mark was added they sold in the us for 200 and under. You bought a bad gun. It's ok. It happens sometimes. Just don't buy anymore or recommend them to anyone since you are currently getting the correct information.
Like · Reply · 2 · June 22, 2016 at 4:36am
Stu Purcell If price is the reason why not glock or cz P0 series, they're the same price or better.
Like · Reply · June 22, 2016 at 6:56am
Paul Nelson I bought it because I didn't want. To leave my sig p229 locked in my car while I'm at work. I am thinking about buying a glock 23 or glock 19.
Like · Reply · June 22, 2016 at 8:33am
Haji Modo I bought both my 19's used and unfired for $250 ea. Yes I practically stole them, but deals are there if ya look. The 19 is the most purchased pistol in the world.
Like · Reply · 1 · August 21, 2016 at 7:50pm
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Chad Mercer Try doing disabled manipulations with an XD... Non-starter
This dude has a strong case of confirmation bias.
Like · Reply · 10 · June 22, 2016 at 3:59am
Jimmy Krause I've had my range now for 12 years. With the CWP, saftey, and novice classes I hold.... I keep 20 range pistols for people use, rent ect.......
I started with police program refurbished gen 1 and 2 Glock 19/17's, and added XD, XDM 9mm's over a 2 year period, along with some personal pistols, revolvers, ect. so there was a few more choices then a or b if they wanted to explore.
The XD and XDM's out of the gate were finiky with my range loads. New shooters had issues limp wristing them which was an easy enough fix, but the damning factor was service life. Weak primer strikes around 5k rounds, broken firing pins and extractors, replacing trigger and striker springs, all while the Glock's only issue was the inability to run cheaper hardcast lead target fodder without a barrel replacement.
After my 4 year experiment with the Spingfield imports (and don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of the brand, I own 9 stock and custom Springer' 1911's, and 4 M1A's).... I ditched them cheap for M&P pro's and haven't looked back
I've since added 4 Canik TP9SF's (non decocker models...) to replace some G17's that were shot out as an experiment on the cheap end, and have nothing but good to say about them. There trigger is about the best I've ever felt in a stock striker fired pistol, they're accurate, balls out relible and rugged. New shooters take to them like a duck to water. A couple are over the 8k round mark with no issues, and everyone that's shot them usually ends up getting one, even some of my old salts.......
It takes allot for a guy like me to recomend something from Century Arms over Springer', but the proof is in the performance. If you like the XD/XDM, chances are you don't shoot it enough, or shoot it seriously. It's price point and the fact that being from Springer makes it an easy sell for the blunt skulled stubborn individual who's looking to make the leap into the world of tupperware, but the ammount of used ones on the gun auction sights should tell you people discover their shortcomings quickly!
Unlike · Reply · 3 · June 22, 2016 at 8:30am
Chris Hill I mean for rental guns why not replace a few glocks with caniks he said it was as an experiment
Like · Reply · June 22, 2016 at 11:14am
Jimmy Krause It was cost, $280-$400 police trade in's are getting harder to find for range guns..... but i'd trust a Canik as much as i do a Glock, parts availability is my big issue with Canik, I've never had to rebuild one yet, but there's nothing in aftermarket barrels, no replacement frames available, ect.....
Like · Reply · 1 · June 22, 2016 at 1:37pm
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Aaron Cowan I keep track of failures in all classes; currently the XD reigns supreme with 19 over the past 4 years. This accounts for any failure that could not be remedied by immediate or remedial action; examples include; grip safety failing to reset, grip safety failing to engage, broken guide rod, broken striker, fractured chamber wall, fractured striker face wall, cracked slide, trigger shoe failure and on and on. "XD" covers XD, XDmod 2, XDS and XDM. The counting continues.
Like · Reply · 7 · June 22, 2016 at 11:26am
Chris Hill No Aaron that doesn't count because confirmation bias and scientific method!!! Where's muh control group! How do we know it's not user error! Trends don't equal science!!!!!!
Like · Reply · 1 · June 22, 2016 at 11:34am
Aaron Cowan As much as I love science, sometimes anecdotal is as good as it gets due to uncontrollable variables.
Unlike · Reply · 6 · June 22, 2016 at 11:36am
Chris Hill The only time I see people discount anecdotal evidence from a good source is when it doesn't fit their narrative
Like · Reply · 3 · June 22, 2016 at 11:37am
Zach McWilliams I love the word anecdotal. That's all.
Like · Reply · June 22, 2016 at 2:40pm
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Jeff Quinney My 6 year old 3.8" XDM .40 has about 5k through it, at least 3k as a rental gun.
No serious issues or consistent malfunctions EXCEPT the striker retainer pin snapped in half around 3-4k in.
I won't recommend them or carry it, but that's my experience with mine. It's just sat in the bottom of an old range bag for years now.
Like · Reply · June 22, 2016 at 1:19pm
Haji Modo We sent back three with live rounds in the chamber where the gun was locked up like a vault. There was no other option.
Like · Reply · 3 · June 22, 2016 at 2:47pm
Chris Hill Couldn't you just hit the exposed striker with a hammer and get it to just be a stuck case
Like · Reply · 2 · June 22, 2016 at 2:59pm
Chad Halvorson Saw that twice myself as well with XD pistols used by a single agency.
Like · Reply · June 22, 2016 at 7:29pm
Haji Modo Chris, we considered it for a moment (we had a bullet trap ) but didn't want to break it more. Since there was no trigger movement at all we figured the striker safety wouldn't allow it. Don't know if that woulda worked or not in the end, but the guns were so non operational at that point they might as well be dewats.
Like · Reply · August 21, 2016 at 8:05pm
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Noah Tramposh ^thats a pretty well known issue with the xd.
Like · Reply · 4 · June 22, 2016 at 2:56pm
Matt Prime Dave
Like · Reply · 2 · June 27, 2016 at 9:47pm
Dave Maxwell Patrick Rota
Like · Reply · August 21, 2016 at 7:12pm