Training With Limited Ammo

Longinvs

Regular Member
Quantified Performance
I don't think I need to give anyone here the state of the union regarding ammo. With limited supply what are your recommendations to the brand new or novice gun owners in your sphere of influence? If you only had 50 or 100 rounds per practice session what would/does your training look like?
 

pointblank4445

Established
Training looks pretty much the same as before but with the following caveats:
-More dry reps between live fire drills. Where I may have done 2-3, it will now be 5-6 reps.
-Drills will be modified where if I can do in 4-5 rounds instead of 10 rounds, the drill will be adjusted. 10rounds in 10s will become 5 rounds in 5s. Personal progress can still be tracked.

No matter the discipline (carbine, pistol, shotgun, precision rifle), the meat of skill progression can be done dry (with the obvious exception of recoil management).

For round economy, I like Jedi's Black Belt Standards quartet of drills. Quite a bit in just 13 rounds.

If we're talking rifle/carbine, I like setting up a close IPSC for CQB and 2/3 IPSC steel at distance (range/shooter/weapon dependent). Run it like the FASTest. 2x shots in the A-zone of the CQB, speed load, and transition to the far target assuming a supported or prone position and put 4 or 5 rounds on that for time.
 

Tuukka

Newbie
I have had the Mantis Blackbeard on loan for a while now ( the kit that replaces the AR BCG with an auto reset training bolt )

It is a very useful tool for dry fire practice. Easy to bring to the range also to run some reps before going live

This one is the non laser version and I am also looking at getting the visible laser version and some laser targets for longer distance etc. Why visible, I dont like it but cell phone target apps dont work with IR what I understand.

But in any case the Blackbeard brings a lot for a reasonable cost and is something that I was heavily looking into some time ago.

Works pretty well and a good investment even with regular rifle ammo prices, not to mentioned what you guys are looking at now..
 

MynameisDat

Amateur
I've almost exclusively been practicing pistol work since it's most applicable to me as a regular dude.
Live fire practice is every few weeks and limited to 100 rounds. Dry fire ~1 hr a day. 30 mins before work and 30 after.
I also shoot USPSA as a supplement to access my skills and see where I stack up.

Each live fire practice is from concealment usually and starts with Pressburg's No Fail.
From there, I'll usually do some draw to first shots for 20 or so reps. Then I'll stop intermittently and dryfire it out.
I usually work in some partial bill drills too. So instead of 6 shots, I'll do 2
Actually, I've been working in dryfire throughout my live fire routine. This has shown to pay off in my match results.
The rest of the session honestly will vary based on what I felt I was deficient in my last match. I'll usually focus on that single thing.
Regardless of what you do, a little diary of thoughts on practice and what you did well and not so well helps to track progress.
The diary things seems super lame but it works so it's not THAT dumb.
 

Jake_Disty

Amateur
I limit my live fire at the range to 50 rounds of 9mm every two weeks. When I go to the range I focus on shooting everything at greater distances or giving myself smaller target areas. Instead of a full IDPA A-zone, might go to a 4" circle. Similar to what MynameisDat said, there's nothing wrong with cutting the round counts down. If you wanna shoot a 10/10/10, you just can shoot 5 rounds in 5 seconds from 10 yards.
 
Tons of dry fire practice.
The 3M drill seems to be the most efficient hand gun skill builder as far as round count

 

MynameisDat

Amateur
I limit my live fire at the range to 50 rounds of 9mm every two weeks. When I go to the range I focus on shooting everything at greater distances or giving myself smaller target areas. Instead of a full IDPA A-zone, might go to a 4" circle. Similar to what MynameisDat said, there's nothing wrong with cutting the round counts down. If you wanna shoot a 10/10/10, you just can shoot 5 rounds in 5 seconds from 10 yards.
I like the 5 round 5 sec thing. Even when I shoot a full 10/10/10 and throw one into the 8 ring, itll be early in the string.
5 rounds will give you great value I think.
 
Credit to Tim Reedy of Bandera IDPA for the following, originally shared on Facebook:
"
For folks who are looking to maximize each round fired in practice, here’s an updated version of low round count drills/tests that I’ve compiled that use 3x5 cards, B8/LTT targets, or Rangemaster/TxT/IDPA targets. Attribution given where known. Please let me know of any corrections. Thanks!
Low round count drills/tests:
*3x5 card, oriented vertically. Dave Spaulding
• Fade Back Drill. 18 rds. 3 rounds, no time limit, from 3, 5, 7, 10, 15, and 25 yards.
• 2x2x2 drill. 2 rounds. 2 second par time. 20 feet. From concealed or duty holster.
*B8 or LTT target drills:
• Test With No Name - John Johnston
Requires LTT turned sideways at 5 yards. 12 rounds. Draw from concealment (add .5 for open carry)
5 on left B8, one on either upper or lower square, 5 on right B8, one on the other square.
Sub 6 seconds: Expert. Sub 10 seconds: Advanced. Sub 15 seconds: Intermediate
• Givens’ No Name: 10 yards. 10 rds two hands, 5 rds RH, 5rds LH. 10 second par for each
• Rangemaster Baseline Skills Assessment Drill 20 rds. Shot cold, from concealed carry.
5 yards Draw and fire 5 rounds in 5 seconds, using both hands.
5 yards Start gun in hand, at Ready, in dominant hand only. Fire 3 rounds in 3 seconds.
5 yards Start gun in hand, at Ready, in non-dominant hand only. Fire 2 rounds in 3 seconds.
7 yards Start gun in hand, loaded with 3 rounds only. Fire 3 rounds, conduct an empty gun reload, and fire 3 more rounds, all in 10 seconds.
10 yards Start gun in hand, at Ready. Fire 4 rounds in 4 seconds. 20 rounds total.
Possible score = 200
• Justin Dyal’s 5-yard roundup. 10 rounds. 2.5 second par.
1 from holster. 4 from ready. 3 from ready SH only. 2 from ready WH only.
• Rangemaster Bullseye Test. 30 rounds. 300 points possible 270 or higher to pass
25 yards 5 rounds one minute. 15 yards 5 rounds 15 seconds. 15 yards 5 rounds 10 seconds
7 yards Load 5 in gun. 15 seconds Fire 5, reload, fire 5
5 yards 5 rounds 5 seconds
• Rangemaster Advanced Bullseye Test. 30 rounds. 300 points possible 270 or higher to pass.
Only hits in the 8, 9, 10 and X ring count. All strings begin at Ready.
25 yards - 5 rounds in 30 seconds. 15 yards - 5 rounds in 10 seconds. 7 yards - Start with 5 rds in the gun; 5 rounds, reload, 5 rounds (10 rounds in 12 seconds.)
5 yards - 5 rounds in 5 seconds. 3 rounds 3 seconds SH only. 2 rounds in 3 seconds. WH only
• Larry Vickers’ The Test & Hardwired Tactical’s Super Test.
The Test: 10 rounds. 90 to pass. 10 yards, 10 seconds from low ready.
Super Test: distance=par time. 30 rounds. 270 to pass. From ready:
15 yards: 10 rounds 15 seconds. 10 yards: 10 rounds 10 seconds. 5 yards: 10 rounds 5 seconds.
Advanced version is shot from holster. 8 round guns are shot from the holster on the standard test.
*TxT, IDPA, or RangeMaster target drills:
• Hackathorn wizard drill. 5 rounds. From the low ready.
Each string of fire has a maximum time limit of 2.5 seconds.
Stage 1) 3 yards, one head shot strong hand only
Stage 2) 5 yards, one head shot using both hands on the gun
Stage 3) 7 yards, one head shot using both hands on the gun
Stage 4) 10 yards, two body shots using both hands on the gun.
• Farnam/Givens 3M drill. 9 rounds. Movement req. when not shooting.
5 yards. Loaded with six live rounds and one dummy round.
Holstered, hands in interview stance. On signal, side step on draw, fire until malfunction occurs. Side step, fix it, and continue to fire.
When the gun runs empty, side step, perform an emergency reload, and fire 3 additional shots.
• Todd Louis Green’s FAST Test. 7 rounds
7 yards. Test begins from the holster, pistol loaded with exactly two rounds. On the signal:
Draw, fire two rounds at the 3×5 head box, perform a slide lock reload, fire four rounds at the 8″ circle
• Oh Crap drill - Unknown: 3 rounds.
7 yards. Setup gun with empty chamber or double feed and loaded magazine. At signal, attempt to fire, fix malfunction, and perform a failure drill (Mozambique) on target.
• El Presidente – Jeff Cooper. 12 rounds.
Set up 3 targets at 10 yards, two yards apart. Start Back to targets, and wrists above shoulders. At signal turn, draw and shoot each target twice. Reload, and shoot each target two more times.
• 3 seconds or less. Karl Rehn /KR Training. 20 rounds.
3 Yards: Load with exactly 10 rounds. Hands at sides, gun concealed.
Step left, draw and fire 3 body shots, 2 handed. (After) Holster, step right.
Firing hand on gun, support hand on chest.
Draw and fire 2 head shots, 2 handed. VERIFY GUN HAS ONLY 5 ROUNDS, HOLSTER. Hands at sides, gun concealed.
Step right, draw and fire 3 body shots, 2 handed. (after) Holster, step left. Take one step forward (2 yards), firing hand on gun, support hand on chest.
Draw and fire 2 body shots, firing hand only, while backing up.
(after) unload gun, lock slide, holster gun with slide locked, move to 7 yard line
7 Yards: Start with magazine in support hand, slide-locked gun in firing hand. Magazine 1”-2” from mag well, ready to insert to complete the load.
On signal, insert mag, rack slide, fire 1 body shot, 2 handed. (after) Return to ready, finger off trigger.
Fire 2 head shots, 2 handed. (after) Holster. Firing hand on gun, support hand on chest.
Fire 2 body shots, firing hand only.
RELOAD OR VERIFY THAT GUN HAS AT LEAST 5 ROUNDS
Face 90 degrees to the left (LH shooters, face right), hand on gun.
Turn, draw and fire 3 body shots, 2 handed.
(after) Transfer gun to support hand.
Firing hand on chest, gun in support hand, aimed at target, finger OFF trigger.
Fire 2 body shots, support hand only.
(after) Transfer gun to firing hand, unload/reload and holster."
 

Jake_Disty

Amateur
This post is worthless on so many levels.

Good thing most drills worth a fuck can be altered for time, distance, target area and that we have metrics to track progress so we know when to up the difficulty.
Agree, if a drill is kickin a new shooters ass they should use the drill as a roadmap to figure out where to invest time and ammo to improve. Earlier someone posted about the 5 yard round up from Justin Dyal, great drill and it's easy for more skillful shooters to increase the challenge by backing off from the target or making the target smaller. IMO a new shooter shouldn't feel bad about not passing a drill, they should feel the desire to get better and want to pass it the next time.

I think a untimed "walk back" drill on something like a B8 is a good way to start a new shooter out.
 

Brock01

Newbie
I don't think I need to give anyone here the state of the union regarding ammo. With limited supply what are your recommendations to the brand new or novice gun owners in your sphere of influence? If you only had 50 or 100 rounds per practice session what would/does your training look like?
This post is worthless on so many levels.

Good thing most drills worth a fuck can be altered for time, distance, target area and that we have metrics to track progress so we know when to up the difficulty.


I started to type a very long response to this.
Are the drills that you run, the same ones you would give to someone who can't even hold a gun properly?
 

Longinvs

Regular Member
Quantified Performance
I started to type a very long response to this.
Are the drills that you run, the same ones you would give to someone who can't even hold a gun properly?
Yes. Just modified for a time and distance standard.
 

Grizzly

Regular Member
I've been spending more time working with the mantis and working through drills in Steve Anderson's "Refinement and Repetition" book.
 

pointblank4445

Established
I started to type a very long response to this.
Are the drills that you run, the same ones you would give to someone who can't even hold a gun properly?

Regarding your first post...
It used to be a big thing here to have to EXPLAIN YOUR POST. Despite the fact that your stance differs the philosophy of the pillar members/instructors here, you failed to offer any reasoning or explanation. Otherwise we're left with something vague and irritatingly boastful.

IF we're dealing with a new shooter that doesn't know how to hold the gun properly, that obviously is an issue that should be addressed before reinforcing less-than-ideal form with drills.
IF we're dealing with someone who mechanically/physically can't (due to age, injury, strength, etc.), then yeah, it's the same test/drills tailored for the skill level, and the SAME micro drills to improve each skill component.

So...yeah, it's all the same shit with adjusted metrics. In a way, the spirit of this thread is in the same vein....more efficiency, less wasted effort (or ammo).
 

Arete

Regular Member
Paul Howe has written that when he got out of the Army and was a traveling trainer prior to buying the land for CSAT, he taught for a lot of LE agencies that didn't have much of a training budget. He had them do 5 reps of a drill, the first 4 being dry and the last live.

I prefer to do a cold live rep, then dry reps, and then finish with a live rep. All using a shot timer (of course using PAR times for the dry reps).

You can also use Paul's CSAT standards as a comprehensive baseline test, and afterward, work on what you sucked on, not what you are good at.

One of the hardest (and most worthwhile) drills I like to use is Chuck P's No Fail Shot drill. It's only 10 rounds. You can adapt it in many ways and also do it in dry fire.

As mentioned above, Steve Anderson's books (and also Ben Stoeger's books) are good stuff.
 

Jake_Disty

Amateur
Qualifications and standards of speed, distance, and accuracy shouldn't be changed to allow someone to pass. When we continue to lower the bar for what is consider acceptable all we are doing is breading mediocrity.

That being said, I have no issue with a new or struggling shooter adjusting an aspect of a drill to work on developing skills. While I would love to see people come up to the line cold and be able to pass a challenging course of fire, I understand that everyone needs to start somewhere.
 

pointblank4445

Established
Qualifications and standards of speed, distance, and accuracy shouldn't be changed to allow someone to pass. When we continue to lower the bar for what is consider acceptable all we are doing is breading mediocrity.

That being said, I have no issue with a new or struggling shooter adjusting an aspect of a drill to work on developing skills. While I would love to see people come up to the line cold and be able to pass a challenging course of fire, I understand that everyone needs to start somewhere.
I don't think anyone here advocates "lowering standards". A qual is an administrative pass/fail "test". A "drill" is practice or skill development.

Those that struggle with already laughably low qualification standards on most things aren't training or worried about drills.
Much the same reason if I want to be able to bust out 10x reps of 300lbs on bench, I don't just sit there under a 300lb bar and struggle to do 1 rep. I start with lower weight and through some sort of system, I record my progress of advancing weight and reps over time to meet and hopefully exceed my goal.

Same here, let's take the 10-10-10/The TEST, 10 rounds from 10y in 10s on a B8. If I have someone who can't keep everything on the paper or is clocking in at 30s, we have to find the limits of that individual's skill level and work in, around and just beyond as the point to build on. More than likely, it's everything that needs help....the draw, the first shot, recoil control, trigger press.
 

Jake_Disty

Amateur
"Those that struggle with already laughably low qualification standards on most things aren't training or worried about drills."

I agree with you completely. I don't think I did a great job of making a clear point with my reply. Earlier someone said how the drills they would use for their practice aren't the same drills would suggest to a newer shooter. I understand both sides of the coin on this. The point I failed to make was that I feel we should be challenging newer shooters in a positive way to make them want to improve.

My issue comes from those qualifications which have laughably low standards. There are qualifications which the bar is set so low that to failure seems impossible, yet there are plenty of individuals who feel confident in their abilities simply because they passed. Qualifications that come to mind are state mandated conceal carry qualifications and even my own state polices qualification. You are correct in saying that those individuals don't care or train.

Would you agree that similar qualifications give a false idea of firearms proficiency? Personally I do and I'd rather see someone shooting a 5 yard, 5 second, 5 round drill into a B8 than watching them shoot a slow fire qualification on a B-27 at 5 yards.
 
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