Chriscanbreach
Established
That’s a lot of FTF. Light primer strike? Odd non stock parts?
To tap, or just to rack, this is the question.
- Thread starter Steven Cali
- Start date
Ammo is frustrating Chris, but I had a riot today. I can tell you that I was the only guy at the match shooting Open from concealment out of an AIWB rig - HA.
I cleaned the striker channel and trained Friday, Saturday and shot a match today. The gunpowder has been burning for sure. One FTF on Friday, Two on Saturday and three today. 6 FTF out of just over 300 rounds. We'll call that 2% failure rate.
G19.5, Stock striker spring, Overwatch Precision TAC trigger with Ghost connector. I think that I will pull the Ghost connector out. I'm not sure that a connector makes a difference or not, but it is coming out for the next range session. Shoot a league on Tuesday night, so I should shake this thing out sooner than later.
I cleaned the striker channel and trained Friday, Saturday and shot a match today. The gunpowder has been burning for sure. One FTF on Friday, Two on Saturday and three today. 6 FTF out of just over 300 rounds. We'll call that 2% failure rate.
G19.5, Stock striker spring, Overwatch Precision TAC trigger with Ghost connector. I think that I will pull the Ghost connector out. I'm not sure that a connector makes a difference or not, but it is coming out for the next range session. Shoot a league on Tuesday night, so I should shake this thing out sooner than later.
William B.
Newbie
Same. I tried it out and it didn't work for me. It wasn't compatible with most of my IWB holsters, either.
While the vast majority of malfunctions that can be cleared by racking the slide will work without a tap, my personal experience in my former department leads me to favor the tap. On one occasion, a SIG 226 magazine was found on the ground during a search for a shoplifter , This, plus the flight of someone from our officers in a woodland park resulted in a significant increase in time, resources, and aviation fuel. (The state police helicopter does not usually fly for shoplifters.) While I had called for officers to check their magazines of their pistols, a lateral hire in field training had checked his magazine carrier, but not the magazine well of his pistol. On a positive note, we deterred people from shoplifting at the Seven-Eleven and/or drinking/trespassing in the park after hours for probably about two days.
The FNS-9 pistols that we later issued routinely ejected magazines when holstered. This could be corrected by installation of a low profile magazine release which isn't great, but is workable. Several officers had magazines eject in holster. (Whoever found my magazine either on the FOP transport bus or the grounds of the U.S. Capitol on Police Memorial Day three years ago is welcome to keep it.) Neither I nor my former agency carry that pistol anymore.
The FNS-9 pistols that we later issued routinely ejected magazines when holstered. This could be corrected by installation of a low profile magazine release which isn't great, but is workable. Several officers had magazines eject in holster. (Whoever found my magazine either on the FOP transport bus or the grounds of the U.S. Capitol on Police Memorial Day three years ago is welcome to keep it.) Neither I nor my former agency carry that pistol anymore.
We've had personnel who wanted to add extended mag release buttons to their pistols, which we disapprove.
One of them did add one w/o approval and when I found out I showed him how getting his holster bumped from the outboard side with merely moderate force could result in the button being depressed and the mag unlocking. His eyes got big and he promptly swapped back to the stock part.
I respect Bill and the others who don't prefer using the Tap and I can see their reasoning.
However, while stoppages in normal firearms training don't often involve the magazine unlocking (thus requiring the Tap), things can be different in other contexts.
It is not uncommon during a struggle involving a holstered or unholstered gun for the mag catch to become depressed, necessitating the Tap, or if the pistol falls on the ground, for whatever reason.
Additionally, in low light training we have observed that personnel who use flashlight techniques that involve the flashlight being held against the left side of the gun, i.e. in close proximity to the mag catch button, can inadvertently press it, especially during recoil.
Another consideration, I like the commonality of the Tap as step 1 of IA with both the pistol and the rifle, as in training I have seen a lot of rifle mags become unlocked yet remain inserted in the magwell, due to people doing a really good job at indexing their trigger finger . . . right on top of the mag release. Apply some pressure, especially when under stress, and they press the mag release, usually w/o knowing it.
Have also had to go back into the woods searching for a magazine that was in advertently dropped by one of our guys due to this. Fortunately we found it.
FWIW, YMMV, and all that.
One of them did add one w/o approval and when I found out I showed him how getting his holster bumped from the outboard side with merely moderate force could result in the button being depressed and the mag unlocking. His eyes got big and he promptly swapped back to the stock part.
I respect Bill and the others who don't prefer using the Tap and I can see their reasoning.
However, while stoppages in normal firearms training don't often involve the magazine unlocking (thus requiring the Tap), things can be different in other contexts.
It is not uncommon during a struggle involving a holstered or unholstered gun for the mag catch to become depressed, necessitating the Tap, or if the pistol falls on the ground, for whatever reason.
Additionally, in low light training we have observed that personnel who use flashlight techniques that involve the flashlight being held against the left side of the gun, i.e. in close proximity to the mag catch button, can inadvertently press it, especially during recoil.
Another consideration, I like the commonality of the Tap as step 1 of IA with both the pistol and the rifle, as in training I have seen a lot of rifle mags become unlocked yet remain inserted in the magwell, due to people doing a really good job at indexing their trigger finger . . . right on top of the mag release. Apply some pressure, especially when under stress, and they press the mag release, usually w/o knowing it.
Have also had to go back into the woods searching for a magazine that was in advertently dropped by one of our guys due to this. Fortunately we found it.
FWIW, YMMV, and all that.
I tried am extended magazine release with the Glock 27 I carried as a BUG in a vest holster. I changed that outafter finding the magazine could eject when holstered.
The FNS Compacts came with the low profile magazine release. While other officers did not have issues, the one Compact I test fired required me to bench the gun to eject the magazine.
The FNS Compacts came with the low profile magazine release. While other officers did not have issues, the one Compact I test fired required me to bench the gun to eject the magazine.
At a match / League night last night, I witnessed a competitor not tap first and just rack. His next trigger pull on target, the magazine hit the ground. I had a single FTF during a stage last night and my brain just said, fix it and it was so without much conscious thought.
What was he shooting?
Sorry, I should have been clearer. I was asking about the pistol, since it seems that magazine seating problems vary in probability significantly from one platform to the next.
Chriscanbreach
Established
So, I decided to perform an experiment, to see if I could get a magazine to stay in my Glock without being fully seated, starting with a full mag, and working my way down, one round at a time, until it would stay in the gun without engaging the mag catch. I could not get the magazine to stay in the gun until I got all the way down to a single round, and even that still fell out of the gun with any hand movement whatsoever. Only an empty magazine would stay in the gun without being fully engaged. I tested it with a factory g22 magazine and 155 grain HST.
Based on those results, it seems to me that if the magazine becomes unseated, it will already be too late to tap in order to resolve the problem, so I need to reload anyway (probably with the slide forward, and then rack, since the slide isn't going to lock back on its own.)
Based on those results, it seems to me that if the magazine becomes unseated, it will already be too late to tap in order to resolve the problem, so I need to reload anyway (probably with the slide forward, and then rack, since the slide isn't going to lock back on its own.)
I wish I had his run on video, I know that the gun was not a Glock. Note, when I'm shooting these things, I'm mostly worried about which target I'm taking where and what dance moves I'm doing to make it all happen.
I was personally taking a pistol class a number of years ago and we were just about to run a course when I wanted to see how many rounds were in my G34. I knew that I couldn't take the gun out of the holster where I was, it was a hot range, so I had this grand idea to just drop my mag in the holster, check the rounds available and reinserted. On the buzzer, I drew shot a single round and then the mag hit the ground. The instructor laughed and went on a training opportunity about never loading your mag in a holster like he has seen so many times at his agencies pistol quals.
I was personally taking a pistol class a number of years ago and we were just about to run a course when I wanted to see how many rounds were in my G34. I knew that I couldn't take the gun out of the holster where I was, it was a hot range, so I had this grand idea to just drop my mag in the holster, check the rounds available and reinserted. On the buzzer, I drew shot a single round and then the mag hit the ground. The instructor laughed and went on a training opportunity about never loading your mag in a holster like he has seen so many times at his agencies pistol quals.
MudholeStomper
Newbie
Great question and great thread
William B.
Newbie
This is a great point for full-sized pistols, but also consider that in compact handguns the magazine could be unseated with your hand preventing it from falling free.
I’ve accidentally popped the mag release on my Glock 43 with how high I grip it. I noticed that I would fire and the mag would move under my hand, have to tap and rack. The fix I came up with in this case was to trim down the mag release some. This was with a two handed(righty) grip, my middle finger is wrapping around the frame and comes into contact with that button. It doesn’t happen anymore but now reloads are slower and need to be done more deliberately. This gun doesn’t drop mag free most of the time, even loaded ones. I have to strip them out.
As others have noted, mags get popped when the gun is in the holster. This happens to me a lot because in my line of work I am often carrying heavy/awkward things or in awkward positions. When I wore my gun for lefty aiwb(stock mag release)the button would get into contact with all kinds of whatever. Also happens with pocket autos. It became a habit to just reach through the garment and reseat or confirm it’s locked in place. Plenty of times it would click back in and I’m thinking, “How long was I walking around with I single shot gun?” This is not an issue so much with right hand aiwb, the holster protects the mag button somewhat.
As others have noted, mags get popped when the gun is in the holster. This happens to me a lot because in my line of work I am often carrying heavy/awkward things or in awkward positions. When I wore my gun for lefty aiwb(stock mag release)the button would get into contact with all kinds of whatever. Also happens with pocket autos. It became a habit to just reach through the garment and reseat or confirm it’s locked in place. Plenty of times it would click back in and I’m thinking, “How long was I walking around with I single shot gun?” This is not an issue so much with right hand aiwb, the holster protects the mag button somewhat.
Chriscanbreach
Established
Very true and I should be clear this is how I run my Glock Sig Smith and CZ VP9. All full sized 17 / 19 sized polymer striker fired handguns.
Know your gun and what it tolerates in its manual of arms.
It’s my opinion and that of others the techniques we’ve all been taught were necessary and developed in the early era of semi auto handguns where the majority of problems were magazine related and ammo reliability was poor.
When you think about it the reason we have to practice malfunction clearances is because they basically never happen in training. Again I’m taking about quality duty weapons and quality ammo.
As always this is the internet and it’s not training. Get good training.
Know your gun and what it tolerates in its manual of arms.
It’s my opinion and that of others the techniques we’ve all been taught were necessary and developed in the early era of semi auto handguns where the majority of problems were magazine related and ammo reliability was poor.
When you think about it the reason we have to practice malfunction clearances is because they basically never happen in training. Again I’m taking about quality duty weapons and quality ammo.
As always this is the internet and it’s not training. Get good training.
Then I guess it's fortunate that I don't own any.
All my small guns are revolvers.My hands are large enough that my hands spill off the grip on anything smaller than a full size gun, and unless it has a mag extension, my right hand spills too far off to actually get meaningful contact with the mag unless I break my firing grip and hold onto the gun with my thumb and middle finger.