Thinking about a practical handgun skill set

Smith

Regular Member
You can easily just do a FASTest with an 8" paper plate and a 3×5 index card. That being said, I don't see much utility in practicing the FASTest.
I'm not necessarily looking to practice it a ton, but I haven't even done it once to benchmark my self :)
USPSA also taught me how lazy I can be on a sight picture.
I have the same issue. Maybe it's the dot that leads me to overconfirm, haha.

Of the components of the FAST, I have a pretty decent time to first shot and decent "Immediate Incapacitation" (2 headshots) but an atrocious "shoot very fast into a medium-sized target." E.g. I've met Gabe White's Dark Pin time for II and White Pin time for Mozambique, but my best Bill Drill is over 3.6s. I think my grip is also an issue, and I'm mostly working on that right now.

Practicing the individual components separately makes sense, thanks. I read somewhere to just practice for the Bill drill by doing 1 shot, then 2, then 3, .. until you reach the 6.
 

Smith

Regular Member
"My impression so far is that the gamers (USPSA/IDPA) have perfected the technical aspects and how to practice, and I want to use that. But I'm not actually very interested in the competition or gaming besides the crossover to defense."

You are very mis-informed about the whole 'gaming makes me bad defensive shooter' thing. There are multiple top rated 'tactical ' instructors who shoot IDPA/USPA/Whatever, Frank Proctor and Mike Green are a couple who come to mind right off the bat. Heck Larry Vickers helped start IDPA. If you are not shooting competitions , you are doing yourself a disservice

I get you want to master drills but that is all you are doing, is mastering that drill. If that is your focus, so be it. .
Notice that I didn't say 'gaming makes me a bad defensive shooter.' I merely said that I'm not interested in the gaming aspect as a sport too much. E.g. I won't buy a race holster or an IDPA jacket or a 2lbs trigger to shave off time.

And as for IDPA, they don't allow AIWB, or WMLs, or holster/magazine in front of 3 o'clock.. so just from an equipment perspective it's very limited and I can't shoot my carry gear (or even my previous "just go to the range" war belt, which had the holster and magazines mounted at 11 and 2 o'clock, had to move them).

One of the big differences between the really good guys at my local IDPA match and the next group in the pack (where I'm at) is that the pros pre-plan to burn rounds so they can drop a magazine under IDPA rules instead of having to maintain it, and other pre-planning. I find that pretty unrealistic as well when applied to defensive shooting. Now they're also better shooters than me, no question. But I'm only interested in the shooting aspect, not the "pre-plan where to waste a round to game the rule set" part.
 

Smith

Regular Member
I get you want to master drills but that is all you are doing, is mastering that drill. If that is your focus, so be it. .
Thought about this part a bit more. It is an interesting question, because I'm trying to get good at something (a defensive shooting) that might never happen, I don't know what it'll look like, and I can't practice the event itself.

From what I've seen, most civilian defensive shootings are much closer to square-range drills than to competition stages. The one that happened locally and which really shocked me into looking into CCW went like this: Our CCW is on the parking lot of a local restaurant at 1am, going to his car. Guy pulls a gun on him at a few yards and begins firing blindly. Our CCW burns him down. The end. The whole thing took less than 5 seconds and was at what would be considered relatively close range even for a pistol.

It was practically a Bill drill.

Of course I don't know this exact scenario will happen to me, if something ever happens. But none of us do, and I think, statistically, this is way more likely than running around corners and shooting from behind cover.

That doesn't mean competition doesn't still have something to add, for example pressure, seeing others do things better, random gun handling skills in IDPA (e.g. pick up your empty weapon and mags and make ready under the stress of a timer or while sitting).
 

PM07

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Tim Herron posted this today .

timherronshooting PERFORMANCE DRILLS VS. DIAGNOSTIC EXERCISES:

Performance drills, we see these everywhere. These are great to use as a measurement or test of a students current skill, or progression. Here are a few examples of performance drills:

- Agency qualifications
- B-8 10/10/10 (The Test)
- FAST Drill
- 25yd timed B-8 drill (Defoor Hat Qual)
- Bill drill
- 4 aces (2, reload, 2 in 2 sec)
- Garcia dot drill

Performance drills have a commonality of both a time and accuracy standard that must be achieved. They’re great for testing, they’re not great for learning.

Diagnostic or isolation exercises are useful to a student to allow them to explore and develop particular skills or techniques. The gun is providing feedback and the shooter is listening and using that feedback to make changes and improvements.
Diagnostic exercises should not have particular time or accuracy standards attached to them, so that the student can freely learn.

Too often, instructors use performance drills in place of diagnostic exercises to promote learning. Unfortunately, these close off the mind of the shooter from accepting feedback from the gun and promote “commanding results” instead of “encouraging learning”.

A few diagnostic exercises are:

- Untimed shooting of groups
- Shot calling (Call and Plot exercises)
- Throttle control exercise
- Dot torture
- Any isolation exercise without a time or accuracy “standard”

As an instructor, or student/shooter, we need to know when to use either in the correct context to promote freedom of learning, or pressure of performing.

Consider this in your practice and training
 

PM07

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Notice that I didn't say 'gaming makes me a bad defensive shooter.' I merely said that I'm not interested in the gaming aspect as a sport too much. E.g. I won't buy a race holster or an IDPA jacket or a 2lbs trigger to shave off time.

And as for IDPA, they don't allow AIWB, or WMLs, or holster/magazine in front of 3 o'clock.. so just from an equipment perspective it's very limited and I can't shoot my carry gear (or even my previous "just go to the range" war belt, which had the holster and magazines mounted at 11 and 2 o'clock, had to move them).

One of the big differences between the really good guys at my local IDPA match and the next group in the pack (where I'm at) is that the pros pre-plan to burn rounds so they can drop a magazine under IDPA rules instead of having to maintain it, and other pre-planning. I find that pretty unrealistic as well when applied to defensive shooting. Now they're also better shooters than me, no question. But I'm only interested in the shooting aspect, not the "pre-plan where to waste a round to game the rule set" part.
Every range/match is different I guess but I shoot my LE duty gear, with duty holster etc in IDPA and USPSA. I do the same at a couple of different ranges . I know dudes that shoot AIWB in matches. Now, I'm not a current IDPA member so I don't care about rank, classification, stats etc. I don't round dump. If I do a reload with retention then I do a reload with retention, same as going to slide lock.
 

Smith

Regular Member
I think USPSA allows AIWB and maybe WMLs (haven't checked). IDPA doesn't allow either, not in any division, for safety reasons. Yet all the people there I talked to actually carry appendix.

Sounds like you're mostly there for the shooting part as well, not gaming the rules. So we have similar intent from what we want out of competition.

I read up on USPSA power factor today. Sounds like its sole reason for existence is to make .45 competitive because "stopping power?" Am I misunderstanding it?
 

Default.mp3

Established
USPSA allows basically anything on the gun, if you're willing to go to open. You may not be competitive there, but who cares?

Power factor is to allow higher recoil guns to be competitive. 9mm major is a thing, after all.
 

Smith

Regular Member
Reading "Practical Shooting - Beyond Fundamentals" by Brian Enos. I think this book is from 1990.
It's very different from much I'm reading, very "zen" and "shoot your own shoot, man" type thinking. It reminds me of "The Upper Half of the Motorcycle" a lot. On the one hand it feels like it's speaking to a very advanced shooter and I should re-read it in 10 years, on the other hand, I like a lot of what he's saying. And on the practical side, what he recommends seems exactly the same as what everyone is recommending now: grip as high as possible on the gun, thumbs forward but relaxed.
 

PM07

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Have you asked the match Director of your IDPA matches about alternate carry methods etc if you arent really shooting IDPA as a member?
 

Smith

Regular Member
No, since I've only been a handful of times, I am still getting used to it. I only found out I can't have a WML last time. I guess nobody noticed/cared for my light before. I'm currently using a big belt and OWB strong side holster for the matches. I did talk to a few people there though about AIWB, and they said it's not allowed and they carry AIWB in real life, but not in the match. I suppose I could always ask.
 

shoobe01

Established
Some clubs will let you shoot NFS (not for score) with disallowed equipment as long as safe. No AIWB, but the WML will fly then. Maybe. Often works better as second gun if they allow that.

Duty gear is explicitly allowed in IDPA if that's your job, else concealed. But has to be the actual duty belt, and you have to be in some approximation of your uniform generally. Not explicit what that encompasses but we've let an armed pilot shoot in an old captains uniform and his in-the-plane gun, so if you have any certs at all, try that!

I and maybe 1/5th of the local club shoot "pretty tactically." Occasionally take the dumb penalty, for sure shoot slow, but get hits, use cover properly, etc. Recent changes like the cover sticks/lines make it more gamey but no one minds at most IDPA clubs if you shoot it with MORE cover than needed, etc.

I do real drills, go to training classes... sometimes (less than I should, but sometimes), go with like minded friends to the range periodically and run drills together or with each other observing, and do monthly IDPA matches (with pistol and carbine) to try them out yet another way. They work nicely, as there are COFs you didn't design, so funny corners or so on, and at least it is good practice for movement, cover, and marksmanship in that environment. Practice though, not training, might be the way to think about it.

I also do carbine. Have a PCC not unlike my 5.56 guns so I get time on that in close conditions, keep up to speed on mechanical offset, etc regularly which I might not otherwise even if I have regular range time or a couple field EXs a year.
 

shoobe01

Established
Shock. Amazement. Confusion also. Will take a bit to get their clock face zone chart.

Still no WMLs as far as I see though.
 

Smith

Regular Member
Oh very cool! It actually looks like both lasers and WML are allowed now? "provided the firearm otherwise conforms"

No comps, so I guess still no Roland.

Also looks like strong-side holsters can finally be in front of the hip bone, up to 2 o'clock. Plus appendix.

And, failing equipment check is no longer a DQ but only a DNF, shooter may continue to shoot for no score. So I suppose you could roll up with a Roland and just go for no score. Although other than comp, I think this satisfies all complaints I had.

Man, I'm super psyched :) They fixed pretty much everything I was complaining about.

The only things left are 10rd magazine capacity.. honestly I think this is a trade off. Do you really want to burn 17rds to practice a mag change? Just costs more and makes every stage longer. But on the other hand, now you're getting used to a different mag count than you'd have in a real life encounter. Hm.

And, having to retain mags after speed reload if mag is not empty.

But overall, massive improvements. Very happy!
 

Smith

Regular Member
The 22yo kid in Indiana:
- Reacted calmly to an active shooter within 15 seconds of the event starting
- Put 10 shots on target @ 40yds in 15 seconds
- 8 hits
- 0 no-shoots hit

I haven't been able to figure out what exactly he was using, but apparently it was a 9mm Glock. Would be interesting to see if he had a red dot, which would've surely helped at that distance. Also, was it a full sized pistol or one of those tiny carry pistols? That would make the distance shots even more impressive.

Also, at 22 years he would've only been able to legally purchase a pistol at most 1-2 years ago. Now maybe his daddy took him to the range as a kid, but man that's impressive. I don't know if I could put 8/10 rounds @ 40yds in 15s at the range WITH a dot in stable, non-stressful conditions, never mind an active-shooter scenario w/ a busy mall as a backdrop.

This is exactly the handgun skill set I'm talking about. If only 10% of people had this skill set and carried 24/7, I bet mass shootings would drop by 95%. To emphasize again, he engaged the killer within 15s of the whole thing starting, and it was all over another 15s later. Compare to Uvalde. Imagine getting a few teachers per school to that level.

Unless this guy was a 22yo local USPSA Master class shooter, I think this shows that reaching a very effective handgun skillset does not take a very long time.
 

Smith

Regular Member
I've read it was a double-stack 9mm Glock, so at least a 19. So that makes sense. Hitting with those little whipper snappers at 40yds.. omg. I've also seen a headline that says he was "trained by his grandfather," whatever that means.
 

PM07

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"I think this shows that reaching a very effective handgun skillset does not take a very long time."

That is a huge huge assumption.
There are so many unknowns yet as to his firearms use and training history. He may have been shooting pistols for along time, being able to buy one through a FFL does not mean he didn't have access to them. I grew up in the north with one of the most restrictive stats at the time and got to shoot a bunch pistol wise from about 14 on up until I left.

I've seen Glock and also S/A Hellcat thrown around. 9mm will do work beyond 40 yards so Im not sure what the little pills comment brings to the table.

There are plenty of shooters that practice at more than 25 yards. I think the kid did great.
 

Smith

Regular Member
You're absolutely right that we know practically nothing about his training. Would love to know more.

The problem at 40yd isn't 9mm, it's that it's much harder to shoot a tiny pistol at distance than a full-size one. Doable, sure, but more difficult.
 
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