Thinking about a practical handgun skill set

[Smith]

I've been dwelling on this for quite a bit. Wondering if other people have similar thoughts or inputs. I apologize for the somewhat unstructured nature of my thoughts.

Here are some thoughts I have about defensive/practical handgun use:
1) The skill set can be divided relatively neatly into a handful of procedures/techniques (e.g. draw, target acquisition, trigger control, ..)
2) The practical return on investment on these skills quickly diminishes as the shooter approaches the bio-mechanical limits asymptotically
3) Most shooters don't seem to practice their skills strategically, they basically just shoot for fun. I catch myself going to the range, banging out a few magazines, and then scratch my head about what else I should do before I leave.
4) The exceptions to 3) are typically super into it, either (former) LEO/Mil or competitors (USPSA/IDPA), and often also are instructors (another incentive to gain high skill level)
5) While I can see myself doing USPSA/IDPA as a sport, it would seem there is a pretty big gap between "messing around at the range" and "competitor" (even amateur)
6) The social/competitive aspect of these shooting sports is great. We're social animals, we help each other, give each other tips, copy better techniques, get inspired by what's possible. It also helps us get out of hypothetical magic thinking land and actually test our opinions and theories.
7) The sport side has some big practical/logistical downsides. In my area there is no USPSA at all. There is 1 IDPA match per month, which I'll try to go to and check it out. A sport requires commitments in time, effort, equipment, giving up valuable weekend hours..
8) I'm unlikely to be held up at a gas station by Ben Stoeger. Therefore, the "competitive kick" of the sport-style structure eventually turns from an upside (motivation to practice skill) into a downside: you can pour an infinite amount of time/resources into the sport without becoming noticeably better as a defensive shooter, paying huge opportunity cost. Kind of like working out is great for health, but if you go crazy and work out at NFL or Olympic levels, the benefits for your health goals are probably not worth the cost unless it's part of your job (e.g. LEO)
9) The sports are a great way to put your skill set to an objective test - can you perform this skill as good or better than other people?
10) Never putting your skill set to the test is almost a guarantee that you will stagnate and live in magic wonderland ("I think I'm an amazing shooter! I never miss the bullseye at 3yd!", "My draw is super fast... probably under 1s.. or 5s.")
11) I like some of the "benchmark drills" that people are using. BILL drill, FAST drill, various coins. You can do them on your own, on your own time, on many ranges, without having to set up a stage. So logistically they're much easier than setting up a match. But you can still do them in a group, help each other, get tips, have fun with them.
12) The benchmark drills, IMO, more accurately reflect the asymptotic nature of the skill set. If you can hit the benchmark times, you're a better shooter than 99.9% of people on the planet. All the people better than you are guaranteed not to rob you with their race guns, as the frame-mounted optic and giant magwell would be a dead giveaway on the security video.
13) So it seems my ideal training program to develop a practical, defensive handgun skill set would be one that:
- divides the distinct fundamental elements (draw, target acquisition, reload, maybe even clear malfunctions?, recoil control, ..)
- gives practical exercises and progressions for each of them (some of the USPSA books give great exercises here, but more oriented to the sport obviously)
- gives practical benchmark drills to test yourself objectively against (like BILL, FAST) incorporating all the fundamentals
- gives you practical, asymptotic standards so you know when you're "good enough" and can begin investing your time/resources into something else (these would be e.g. the benchmark times, like 2s BILL, 5s FAST)
- can be done solo with relatively little investment of time/equipment
- can still be done socially with friends, or competitively

It seems to me like most of the pieces exist in various places. I've been reading tons of websites, forums, some books (e.g. Stoeger, Anderson), listening to podcasts, and so on for months. Now I kind of need to put all the puzzle pieces together for myself so I can know a) what I can reasonably achieve and b) how.

Anyone else think about these things? Suggestions? Improvements? Pieces I'm missing or wrong about? Has someone already put together this mysterious training plan?

 

[Barry B]

Couple random thoughts….

Stress inoculation. Shoot with an instructor’s critical eye, a shot timer, or some other form of stressor. I have instructors that say you should never be shooting without a shot timer running. It’s a measuring stick and a source of stress.

Once you have a solid foundation seek out progressively more high end instruction - VET YOUR INSTRUCTORS - and obtain force on force instruction (simmunitions?) to work through the mental aspect of shoot/don’t shoot, problem solving, moving and shooting, scenarios, etc.

One of the first formal training sessions I took was a shoot house with simmunitions. Former SOG guy was the instructor. Nice guy, competent, and it was amazing. He said my weapons handling/moving was fantastic. That was nice, but didn’t surprise me. I’m fit, and I know how to run a pistol. What surprised me was having to think and shoot was like mentally drinking from a fire hose!!!!! I made stupid mistakes, I failed to see a threat target right in front of me (but low), etc., etc. It opened my eyes to how difficult shooting and thinking is, compared to just shooting. It overloaded my brain. Thankfully the formal review was I did very, very well… but the few massive boneheaded mistakes I made still stood out in my mind. But, you put yourself out there and learn, embarrassing or not.

Good luck, it seems you are giving this a lot of thought, which is not a bad thing, IMHO.

Barry

 

[Smith]

it seems you are giving this a lot of thought

Overthinking is a big hobby of mine.

Went to a local IDPA match recently. It was great fun, super nice and helpful people. Speaking of "shooting & thinking," I don't even know any of my scores because I was so busy not shooting myself in the foot. So I didn't have the mental capacity to listen or remember. Will have to look them up later.

Definitely noticed that finding the red dot is WAY harder when you're coming out of a step, lean around something, sitting, or some of the other weird positions they put you in at IDPA. Or when there's glare from the sun.

One thing that I found weird was the odd combination of "sport" style rules and "defense" style. They make you use only 10rds in a magazine because apparently some parts of the country don't allow regular capacity magazines. They also disallow appendix carry and even magazine pouches in front of the 3 o'clock position/hip bone. Although everyone there said they carry appendix in daily life.

So it was weird that they're going for realism on the one hand, but then put in these limits that you wouldn't have in real life.

One thing I did like: on most stages there was no penalty for extra rounds fired at a target. As long as you hit, you hit. The downside is you have to buy a few extra rounds after the encounter. That seems pretty realistic to me. It led to some scenarios where spamming was really useful, because you knew you weren't going to use up all your ammo and you could just dump on a moving target to make sure 2 were in the A zone. Probably not something to make a habit of.

 

[Brock01]

The problem with IDPA (there are quite a few) is that they are so structured it basically neuters the decision making process and the ability to think critically. IPSC/ USPSA will have you doing some weird stuff but you have to be able to process information more IMHO.

With that said. USPSA > IDPA > sitting your arse on the couch watching tv.

As far as being "good enough" that is definitely a debate that can goes down the philosophical rabbit hole in less time than it takes to draw your gun.. If you don't already do so, you should follow Dave Spaulding of Handgun Combatives. He talks a lot about the things you just mentioned. Breaking drills into skillsets, don't just practice the drill over and over, and such. Another thing he talks about is mentally processing and recognizing pre-fight indicators so you begin to mentally prepare yourself for a potential fight. As compared to realizing you are already in the middle of a fight.

The first class I ever took was Larry Vickers 2 day handgun. He said if you can get a shot in the A-zone from 1.5 seconds. You're doing pretty good. In one sense you think that is way too slow. However, I would argue a 1.5 sec draw at the beginning of the fights beats a .9 sec draw 3 seconds into the fight.

 

[Smith]

Another IDPA match. Placed pretty well. This time I was informed that my WML was technically not allowed in ANY of the IDPA divisions. No WML, no appendix, no full-size magazines.. the dual mandate of "realistic tactical cosplay" and "fair and equal sport" seems to conflict a lot.

But the stages were a little simpler and less "gamey" if that makes sense, and it was a lot of fun. Still, spent almost 4 hours to shoot for less than 2 minutes in total.

 

[Barry B]

Another IDPA match. Placed pretty well. This time I was informed that my WML was technically not allowed in ANY of the IDPA divisions. No WML, no appendix, no full-size magazines.. the dual mandate of "realistic tactical cosplay" and "fair and equal sport" seems to conflict a lot.

But the stages were a little simpler and less "gamey" if that makes sense, and it was a lot of fun. Still, spent almost 4 hours to shoot for less than 2 minutes in total.

That seems like an extremely poor return on your time invested. I would get quality training with vetted instructors. Best money spent.

 

[Smith]

That seems like an extremely poor return on your time invested. I would get quality training with vetted instructors. Best money spent.

I'm doing both. Have gotten pretty phenomenal training so far, I think, given that I'm doing really well in the actual shooting part of IDPA.

One of the issues I have with "only training" is that I don't have much to compare myself against. So when the instructor says "Great job!" I'm not sure what that means. Is it A for Effort or would I actually be on par with a shooter who's put in a ton of time and effort? IDPA (or other competition) and timed drills give you some of that perspective.

I tried a few popular timed drills at the outdoor range too, recently. In most of them I'm not doing any impressive work, but I managed to get to Light Pin and Dark Pin territory for one each, and a Purple Belt on one of the MSP drills.

I'm thinking that, going forward, drill work is a lot more time-efficient than IDPA. But IDPA is kind of fun, so I'll probably keep doing it for a while. Unless the rules are too strict lol. I don't want to keep a whole separate gaming setup for my gun just to do IDPA, that kind of defeats the purpose of IDPA.

 

[Barry B]

I'm doing both. Have gotten pretty phenomenal training so far, I think, given that I'm doing really well in the actual shooting part of IDPA.

One of the issues I have with "only training" is that I don't have much to compare myself against. So when the instructor says "Great job!" I'm not sure what that means. Is it A for Effort or would I actually be on par with a shooter who's put in a ton of time and effort? IDPA (or other competition) and timed drills give you some of that perspective.

I tried a few popular timed drills at the outdoor range too, recently. In most of them I'm not doing any impressive work, but I managed to get to Light Pin and Dark Pin territory for one each, and a Purple Belt on one of the MSP drills.

I'm thinking that, going forward, drill work is a lot more time-efficient than IDPA. But IDPA is kind of fun, so I'll probably keep doing it for a while. Unless the rules are too strict lol. I don't want to keep a whole separate gaming setup for my gun just to do IDPA, that kind of defeats the purpose of IDPA.

Smith,

I don’t know who you are training with, but when I sign up for a class, it has prerequisites for attending, breaks down specifically what students will be working on (managing recoil, trigger control, shooting and moving, draw stroke, etc), and the skill level the class is focused on (ex: open to all levels, beginner, expert shooters), and what the student should leave with as far as an understanding or proficiency.

Conversely, I receive very clear feedback on performance standards I should be striving to meet, or meeting, any areas of improvement, and what I’m doing correctly/incorrectly during each phase of the class.

Again, don’t know who you are training with, but vetting of instructors and course content is critical.

Regards,
Barry

 

[Smith]

Thanks Barry.

I started out doing mostly 1on1 classes with a local Sig Sauer instructor. What he taught was pretty much 100% aligned with what I saw other reputable instructors online teach (in terms of grip, stance, and so on), though his focus was more on very-close range (~3yds) and movement than some other popular distances that people work at. Personally I enjoy some of the intermediate distances like 7 or 10yds, because you really can't miss at 3yds.

More recently I took a bigger group class out of state. The class was "beginner to intermediate" and the skill levels varied widely. Some students had never shot before, others had decades of experience or were themselves instructors. I'd put myself in the top 25% or so of shooters there.

They had objective, time-based standards and I was usually one of the best shooters. Now these standards weren't particularly hard compared to what's floating around the internet. Not nearly as demanding as Gabe White or MSP standards. Basically, if you had a ~1.5s draw and a decent grip, you'd easily pass.

Maybe once I get to more advanced classes, there will be more of a focus on difficult standards. This course seemed designed so that beginners would be able to pass the standards.

I think what I'm basically looking for is "The Road To Turbo Pin/MSP Black Belt." I think the drills are fun, challenging, and you can compare yourself objectively to other people. And they're way more time/resource efficient than IDPA (and presumably USPSA).

The components of that are interesting, e.g. you need a reliable 1s draw, you need reliable .2s splits, and so on. And then, what's the best way to achieve these? Sort of like a training plan.

Turbo Pin/MSP Black Belt is the standard. Draw/splits/transitions are the skills. Exercises to get those skills as fast, cheap, and easy as possible.

 

[PM07]

This reminds me of one of Scotts quotes that has stuck with me forever. " I compete to get better with my gun, I don't get better with my gun to compete". I've shot some type of shooting sport for probably close to 25 years or so. IDPA, USPSA, local pistol/rifle/shotgun matches, LE competitions etc. It has never been about improving my placement/scores at a much. Its been about getting good trigger presses under simulated stress and improving my skill sets. I use it as an opportunity to different skills also, like off hand shooting. IE: A left fed corner I shoot it left handed.

IDPA/etc. is what you make of it. They are working on making AIWB (IIRC) approved etc. I don't know where you are located but sometimes you have to drive to put in the trigger time. I have driven 3 hours one way to shoot a GSSF match just for fun. It was worth the time for me. Essential skills development, such as AIWB draws, tactics etc. can be shot on your time.


Finding a instructor with the right background/skills/training is essential , also deciding what you want to work on or what areas you are 'weak' before picking an instructor helps. Not all "Instructors" are equal. Vet your chosen instructor.

 

[PM07]

Drills are just that, drills. They show your ability to put various factors of shooting together in a efficient and repeatable way. Choose drills that mimic your desired training. Shooting on the move, etc.

 

[Smith]

Sounds very much like what I'm thinking. There's a lot of "game" you can learn in IDPA that I'm not necessarily interested in.

What's the stat, most shootings happen within 3 yards, 3 seconds, and 3 bullets? I'd say my goal is to draw and present competently, reliably, and quickly (in that order) to place as many shots as necessary where I want them and nowhere else.

 

[Smith]

Did dot torture @ 3 yards today for the first time. Dang! Only got 39 hits. Surprisingly, I didn't miss a single one from weak hand! This despite sucking majorly at weak hand.
I did pretty well at 9&10 as well. I think it's probably that I needed to slow down and concentrate for this, and it took me the first 5 dots to do so.

In other news, I'm experimenting with my grip. I watched a bunch of MSP videos and I like his high-support hand grip. It seems that when I put my support hand high like that, I get way better recoil control. I suppose before that I was doing a "regular thumbs forward grip."

Does anyone have experience on this? I tried to A/B test it by timing myself doing a Bill drill. I did indeed get about 0.5s off using the high grip, but maybe I just got better in general. I haven't shot the Bill drill a ton.

What was interesting, in some of the runs I just "knew" the shots had landed. My grip was rock solid and I didn't have to wait for the dot to come back, I just knew they would hit. In some, I knew my grip wasn't 100% and I sprayed quite a bit (almost got a D on one).

That said, my best Bill drill w/ all A-zone hits was still 3.6s so tons of room to improve. I'm watching some Youtube videos of USPSA guys and their gun just doesn't move at all when shooting, like a Terminator. That's my goal.

 

[Arete]

It seems that you are picking out bit and pieces here and there, but you don't have a comprehensive training program, and don't know exactly what right looks like, and are looking for that.

Tier 1 units hire pro shooters to teach them how to shoot better, not about how to do CQB. Shooting is only part of that endeavor. but you have to have some technical skills.

Some people are self taught (Ben, who I've trained with), but most everyone else needs a guide or a program. There are many facets to all this.

Technical Skills:
-Steve Andersen's materials have a proven track record of getting people to M and GM. You can do this with carry gear instead of competition gear.
-Mike Seeklander has books as well.
-Matt Burkett. Jerry Barnhardt and Ron Avery had an excellent video series if you can find It nowadays

There is a lot of stuff for free on YouTube from some of these very same folks.

To get you the most progress and not waste time, I recommend you get some 1:1 training with a high level shooter who trains people. Emanuel Bragg, Shannon Smith, Frank Garcia, Bob Vogel, Steve Anderson, Keith Tyler, Gabe White, etc. Sometimes you can find a local M or GM who does classes.
A group class is not the way to go for this type of progress. You need a class for YOU and YOUR needs.
I cannot emphasize this enough. You can struggle and do trial and error and get only so far. Pay for a 1:1 class that address your needs and give you a training program for your needs.

But technical skills get you only so far.

Integrated Combative Skills:
-Southnarc/Craig Douglas (Shivworks), and also Cecil Burch offer excellent classes that incorporate hands on, guns, knives. Craig's MUC (Managing Unknown Contacts) is perhaps most important of all.

Use of white light
-gotta train with this as well

Real World Skills
-working around other people, vehicles, buildings. Applying skills off the square range

Legal
-Learn the laws regarding self defense in your state.
-Claude Werner offers some perspective that worth learning from as well.

Non-Deadly Force Skills
-get a class on pepper spray. It's not quite karate in a can, but it's good to have an option that falls in between harsh words and deadly force.
-medical

There's a lot more than the above but there's a start.

 

[Smith]

It seems that you are picking out bit and pieces here and there, but you don't have a comprehensive training program, and don't know exactly what right looks like, and are looking for that.

That's exactly right!

I do have the Steve Anderson book "Refinement and Repetition" as well as the similar one by Ben Stoeger (honestly, they're the exact same book). Also got a few others less focused on dry fire practice and more on technique itself.

Thank you for the tips & tricks, and recommendations. Gabe White's class especially is one that I've eyed for a while, because of his focus on the technical aspect and self-defense. That's that niche in the Venn diagram between "gaming" and "tacticool" that I'm especially interested in.

My impression so far is that the gamers (USPSA/IDPA) have perfected the technical aspects and how to practice, and I want to use that. But I'm not actually very interested in the competition or gaming besides the crossover to defense.

 

[Smith]

Just realized https://pistol-training.com/ is back! If I remember correctly, it was pretty dormant just a few months ago when I last checked. This is exactly the niche I'm interested in, what I'd call "competition-inspired defensive pistol shooting," so I'm kind of excited.

 

[Smith]

Apparently you can't fit the FAST target onto letter-sized paper.. The 8" circle barely fits and if I draw it myself the box and circle overlap lol.

 

[Default.mp3]

You can easily just do a FASTest with an 8" paper plate and a 3×5 index card. That being said, I don't see much utility in practicing the FASTest. Remember, it's the FASTest, not the FAST drill. It's suppose to be an audit, not something to be practiced. When I took AFHF, TLG himself said that the best way to get better at the FASTest was not to shoot it over and over, but to practice each of the components in themselves. And realistically, the FASTest is not the greatest audit in terms of self-defense-oriented tests, simply due to how heavy a reliance on the reload there is as a part of it; it's a great pistol-handling test, but a lightning fast reload is probably the least important of the components from a self-defense perspective, compared to the rest of the parts that make up the FASTest (the draw, shooting accurately at a small target, shooting quickly at a big target).

I've never shot IDPA, but many of the folks I know that do and also shoot USPSA will freely admit that IDPA is a fucking joke compared to USPSA, as it occupies the unhappy compromise of trying to inject tactical realism into a game, but just ends up watering down both the tactical aspect and the raw gunhandling aspect. I personally will never shoot IDPA simply because I can't with my gear; none of it is legal, whether it be my carry method or my guns themselves. USPSA, on the other hand, is far better in that regard, if you're just looking to audit yourself (or be a lazy piece of shit like me and use it as the only practice) for carry equipment (duty is a little trickier, just because of some gear limitations, primarily due to holster positioning and the such).

USPSA also taught me how lazy I can be on a sight picture. I'm still far slower than I could be if I wanted to really push speed, as I will overconfirm the sights as compared to a true competition shooter, but I've been able to get from ~30% of the top shooter from when I first started to regularly hitting ~60% (and that's running purely from my EDC or else from a war belt with a retention holster, with literally some of the world's best shooters at my local matches setting the 100% benchmark), all with minimal new instruction, purely from understanding the speed I can get away with as I got more comfortable and more repetitions in, without any noticeable drop in accuracy (I typically have the most As out of everyone in the match, including against PCCs... which is a sign that I'm not maximizing my hit factor for the purposes of winning the game, but that's not my goal).

As for classes, I've never taken a Gabe White class, though I've heard great things, but I would strongly encourage ECQC as your next class if your primary consideration is self-defense. I've taken quite a few classes, and ECQC is easily the most impactful class I've had. It's the one class I tell everyone to take the moment they confident that they can be safe with firearms and are serious about self-defense.

 

[PM07]

"My impression so far is that the gamers (USPSA/IDPA) have perfected the technical aspects and how to practice, and I want to use that. But I'm not actually very interested in the competition or gaming besides the crossover to defense."

You are very mis-informed about the whole 'gaming makes me bad defensive shooter' thing. There are multiple top rated 'tactical ' instructors who shoot IDPA/USPA/Whatever, Frank Proctor and Mike Green are a couple who come to mind right off the bat. Heck Larry Vickers helped start IDPA. If you are not shooting competitions , you are doing yourself a disservice

I get you want to master drills but that is all you are doing, is mastering that drill. If that is your focus, so be it. .

 

[Barry B]

+1 for ECQC illustrating how it is not going to go like you think it will go. Best class I’ve taken. Eye opener.

Barry