The Roland Special

tylerw02

Regular Member
I'm curious if completely enveloping the compensator on an equipped handgun would cause injury to the hand when firing. I guess I just need to man up, throw some gloves on, and try it.

Brace Contact Video
I’d you have a Roland special and wraps his hand on your slide, I’d imagine the ports are going to put a hurt on the heel of his hand and wrist. He will let go, rack, bang again, etc.

I guess it’s another advantage of the Roland we hadn’t thought of


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Clay1

Regular Member
Years ago my wife and I handgun hunted for whitetail with handguns. I started with a Smith 27 in 357 Rem Mag. After I bought my first 44 Rem Mag, my wife used the 27.

My wife's first deer was taken and afterwards she said that her chopper mitten (Heavy leather wood chopping mittens) were smoking. Luckily she had a heavy leather mitten on her support hand when she took her first deer. While the gun did not burn a hole all the way through that mitten, in her words it was "smoking".

No wrapping my hand over the port.
 

user12358

Regular Member
A revolver cylinder may be a good comparison, although a compensator is likely worse, as the gasses are all directed in the same direction.
A compensator will be less destructive because you are dealing with muzzle pressure vs chamber pressure which is an order of magnitude lower in most cases. Also the cross sectional area that the gas is being forced through on a revolver cylinder gap is far less than that of a compensator.
 

Yondering

Regular Member
Brace contact shooting is a valid technique, in its particular niche. It was developed by the gentleman in the video, and is growing in popularity and use, particularly in the northwest law enforcement communities. You can't judge an idea by its initial popularity. Remember when the Roland Special was a "stupid idea"?
No, it's stupid because it's a good way to shoot yourself in the hand or arm. He muzzles himself a couple times in that video. That's a really good example of "stupid hurts".
 

rudukai13

Too Established
Network Support III
A compensator will be less destructive because you are dealing with muzzle pressure vs chamber pressure which is an order of magnitude lower in most cases. Also the cross sectional area that the gas is being forced through on a revolver cylinder gap is far less than that of a compensator.
Valid points, but the idea of wrapping your hand around the muzzle (compensator or not) then firing the gun is still very much not a good idea - At the very least it’ll hurt, at worst you run the risk of misjudging your hand placement and bisecting your palm with the fired round
 
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user12358

Regular Member
Valid points, but the idea of wrapping your hand around the muzzle (compensator is not) then firing the gun is still very much not a good idea - At the very least it’ll hurt, at worst you run the risk of misjudging your hand placement and bisecting your palm with the fired round
I certainly didn't advocate for the technique, it is an awful idea and I believe that many people use their guns in situations when it is not the most appropriate tool. I was simply explaining the mechanics of gases escaping the cylinder gap and escaping a compensator.
 

rudukai13

Too Established
Network Support III
I certainly didn't advocate for the technique, it is an awful idea and I believe that many people use their guns in situations when it is not the most appropriate tool. I was simply explaining the mechanics of gases escaping the cylinder gap and escaping a compensator.
Understood, my apologies - Everything beyond “Valid points” in my post was more directed towards Tripleryder’s comments than yours. Should’ve made that more apparent with punctuation
 

rudukai13

Too Established
Network Support III
You can't judge an idea by its initial popularity. Remember when the Roland Special was a "stupid idea"?
There is a difference between something being unpopular/uncommon and inherently a bad idea.

The Roland Special never was, is, nor will be an inherent risk to breaking one or more of the four essential safety rules of firearms use - Intentionally grabbing the muzzle of a pistol you’re about to fire (especially during the chaos of a weapon grab/entanglement scenario) is inherently unsafe and a good way to shoot yourself
 

Corey Barnes

Member
Network Support I
I'm curious if completely enveloping the compensator on an equipped handgun would cause injury to the hand when firing. I guess I just need to man up, throw some gloves on, and try it.
What kind of fuckery is this? This isn't ARFCOM. P&S has never been a place to advocate stupid crap like this, and surely not on a long standing post of legit knowledge. As someone with much more knowledge than me once said, listen more and speak less.
 

rudukai13

Too Established
Network Support III
I went researching to see if I could find any qualitative information regarding what would happen if someone were to fire a compensated pistol with their skin located directly above and in close proximity to the top ports. This is the closest I found;


Obviously this is very unscientific, and it does not address the question of what would happen if you actually completely wrapped your hand around the comp and gripped it tightly so that the expanding gasses and powder had the highest potential to cause injury, but it does show that anything in extremely close proximity to the ports would at the very least get a nasty burn if not worse.

It’s worth noting that the potential for damage does seem to decrease exponentially as you move the exposed tissue (in the case of the video above, a raw chicken breast test medium) further away from the ports on the compensator, likely due to the rapid cooling and dispersion of the expanding gas as it is ejected through the air. This is why there is no risk of injury from a comped pistol when fired in a proper high-pectoral-index retention position;


(Patrick is very serious about his Oreos)

HOWEVER, none of this is to argue that grabbing the muzzle of a pistol while firing it - compensated or not - is a good or safe idea. It is most definitively not
 

Tripleryder

Wants to cover compensators with his hands.
I went researching to see if I could find any qualitative information regarding what would happen if someone were to fire a compensated pistol with their skin located directly above and in close proximity to the top ports. This is the closest I found;
Good find, thank you for contributing to the discussion at hand. The topic of valid pistol retention positions is for another thread. I was merely curious on the level of potential injury one may expect if you were to fire with a hand directly on the compensator ports. I may do some experimenting with some tape, etc. More knowledge is always better.
 

Runcible

Runcible Works
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Ah ok. First I’ve heard a name given to the theory of what happens when your fist fighting and you pull a gun. I like the way he breaks down optimal placement and shows how it “should go” Craig Douglas is legit but this is flash and flare.
SOCP isn’t a comparison because you have a rifle a secondary and a knife.
3sD is all just a dude and a gun. The techniques he shows are excellent baseline ways to get you into optimal position. The reality is going to vary from there.
Thanks for sharing the video.
Could you elaborate upon what is flash and flare in the previously linked video with Craig Douglas and Lohn Lovell, please? If you were referring to the video linked before that about braced-contact shooting; I'd be grateful for the clarification.

What's 3sD?
 
Sure. To be clear, like I said in my post Craig Douglas is legit.
What I meant by flash and flair is the video at its core is an advertisement for SouthNarc and John. People watch YouTube videos and think that’s training. They will try to emulate what’s shown without being instructed properly how to use the techniques. The drills he demonstrated are just that. Starting point drills to demonstrate how to get into a basic position. Even then this works well on a stationary target or one that remains in front of the shooter.
I know John posted another video with Craig where there ground fighting. That’s a great look at what happens.

With that said here are some videos depicting 3sD training under the Special Operations Combatives Program. Please don’t try this without instruction as there’s a lot that needs to be understood.

In my experience when both people are trying to kill each other, controlled violence is the answer.
 

Runcible

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Chriscanbreach,

I follow; the punctuation was throwing me a loop, so I sought clarification.

I don't think belaboring that YT videos ≠ training is helpful; that's a given, here. It's a concise presentation of the techniques, just as the SOCP\S3D videos are. If you're under the impression that those techniques are solely presented, training, and then tested with a stationary training partner remaining in front of the student; that is not the case.

Controlled violence is enabled and successful with effective and robust techniques; enthusiasm is not a substitute for methodology.

Understanding that they are short segments stripped of greater context and learning objectives, what stuck out was:

A lot of unpadded surfaces, edges, and corners; which for sustainable training are pretty significant flags. Real world violence can be life-changing with a quickness just from incidental factors, and training environments don't need to replicate that aspect.

Several students extended their pistols into the effective reach of their opponents, and the opponents were not uniformly attempting to avoid being shot or take hold of the pistol.

Several students used their pistols as solutions to contact-distance attacks, to include with shockknives; and succeeded seemingly in large part because as they drew the weapon the opponent slowed or stopped their advance, or immediately honored a single or small number of shots to themselves. In this case, one roleplayer honors the shots given to a different roleplayer:

Several instances of students firing one shot and then immediately averting the muzzle away in expectation of that shot being honored, rather than demonstrating follow-through or shooting until the desired effect was achieved.

Uneven wear of safety equipment: students do not have the expectation of being struck with the same diversity as the roleplayers do. Students are less equipped to receive incidental strikes from surfaces around them. There's unconscious cueing off of those whom are and those whom are not wearing the safety equipment.

A plethora of "one shot stops" are depicted.

If students are working within the training fiction that they aren't going to be receiving strikes to the head, receiving the same knees they're barraging, or defending against takedowns; are they getting the full possible training value?

With so many depicted scenarios taking place within arm's reach of an opening\shutting door, and with so many students delivering successive knees (and thus are standing on one foot during each delivery) while at times receiving significant forward pressure; how likely is it that students are or will fall backwards? How likely is it that an unhelmeted head or unpadded bodypart will strike the edge of the door, the doorknob, or the doorframe itself?

"How much time and material does it cost to pad every surface that a student or roleplayer may contact during rough play? How much time and material does it cost when you don't, and injuries result?"

I like training heavy; and you can do that until an injury forces an external audit. Heavy training is sustainable through either safe practices and venues, or through the ambivalence of one's command staff; and that latter exists at the toll of injured and\or deadlined students.
 
So I get your concern and see you’re passionate about your views.

I’ll tell you everything in the room is made of foam even if it doesn’t look like it. The video was filmed prior to my class and like the Douglas videos only shows some of the things that go on. The one shot hits are part of drills specifically ending once the gun is fired because the actors don’t always know they’ve been hit. Like I said it’s not a training video.

I think we can agree to disagree about training and I’m not knocking Craig if that’s what offended you.
I don’t know you from Adam and you may have a lot of armed experience in close quarters with combatants. So you can see the rules of engagement were not for CONUS use.
In my experience the techniques I learned have served me well and I used them more to show not a one person was grabbing their muzzle to shoot.
 

Runcible

Runcible Works
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I dig; you've attended the coursework, and I haven't. It'd be arrogant to presume to know it better than you.

For what it's worth, it's quite a bit past what used to be taught in different ends of the DOD, and that's always gladdening - my argument is not that it's not good, but that mayhaps it could be better still with small modifications, but you are apt to point out that it's a narrow snapshot of the body of work. Certainly, I'm not offended - but I do have a personal and professional stake in being able to provide and attend training that is applicable (with the implified intensity that is essential to that) but also sustainable so that injuries are minimized and those that remain are defensible to higher.

More so, I'm not tripping about the use of OCONUS ROE with anchoring shots et al; despite presently being more mindful of CONUS\OCONUS UOF.

Long story short; you're good, buddy!
 
Just to keep this thread trucking, my Roland was built with the following components

- Gen4 G19
- KKM stainless barrel and comp
- OP Tac trigger, NP3 minus connector, and a extra power trigger rest spring
- type 2 RM06
-Frya magwell
- x300u

slide was milled by Clark at CNC before things fell through over there. Didn’t have any real complaints and the forward and top serrations are great.

I just recently ran my Roland exclusively through a Reston group two day class. Figure some 600 rounds, zero cleaning. Added lube before day two as for some reason, my Roland functions flawlessly a touch wet and has the occasional FTE when dry. Gun was flawless throughout the class despite some healthy rain. Overall my Roland has around 6k rounds through it now and the only thing I’ve done is swap to a fresh RSA.

I carry the gun a Few different ways. Either appendix in a phlster spotlight, strong side OC for admin shit at work in a safariland ALS, our concealed in a raven perun in the winter time underneath a coat. I genuinely believe that if assembled correctly with quality parts, this gun packs a lot of features while still being easily concealed.