Erik N.
Newbie
I'm putting this thread down to collate some of the specific questions I had and the answers I received from watching Modcasts listed below, examining the excellent study by Greg Ellifritz in terms of data on performance of .380, 9mm, .40, and .45 ACP, and using some comparative notes from the gelatin tests done on those rounds by Luckygunner.com. Links are provided below.
The specific question I asked was: Is there any statistically significant advantage to using a larger, heavier bullet than 9mm, speaking STRICTLY in terms of impact effect. The Facebook conversation veered around a lot regarding platform but I wanted to very pointedly talk first about the raw effects of lead hitting meat.
The conclusions that were offered, and what were derived from DocGKR's professional opinion and various other sources, were of two minds: the predominant one was that 9mm, fired into an acceptable radius of accuracy (high thoracic cavity), is perfectly adequate to the task with two rounds fired. P&S Mod Chris Taylor noted that he subscribes to the theory that you should pick the hardest-hitting round that you can fire the most efficiently; however, he agrees that for the vast, overwhelming majority of serious professional end users, the 9mm is more than acceptable as a cartridge choice.
The second question I asked, in case the first question was answered with 'Yes, bigger bullets do better', was the following: at what skill level could a person justifiably argue 'I can manage a harder-hitting round?' This was not answered quite as well and several people offered personal testimony about how they feel they can do very well with one magazine, but no specific metrics (accurate shots/seconds shooting) were suggested.
Given a lack of otherwise persuasive metrics offered, I submit the following: Unless you can perform with your handgun at or near a professional level, passing the shooting qualifications required by your local SWAT/LEO special teams units-- or are competing at near the Master level of USPSA/IDPA-- you likely do not have the core skills required to shift away from 9mm.
The primary takeaway from the Facebook thread was this: Loading a JHP with a bonded bullet, modern 9mm fired into high center mass on a target with reasonable effectiveness are functionally as effective as .40, .45, or 10mm in neutralizing a threat. Looking at terminal ballistics-- the science of bullets hitting targets-- there is no significant difference in effect between any of the major defensive handgun calibers.
It demands noting, as well, that the overwhelming response from the thread was: Even if you can prove 10mm is a better round, it is virtually impossible to fire it at the same level of skill as 9mm. It requires a bigger gun, shooter fatigue sets in much faster, and it's expensive to shoot. And, as someone pointed out, 10mm is not just harder to shoot for the above reasons; it's much more difficult to train with 10mm, particularly compared to a more shooter-friendly round like 9mm. Five magazines of 9mm is not particularly tiring, but 5 magazines of 10mm usually leaves most shooters tapping out early in the training day. So saying 'I only need one magazine in a gunfight' leaves out the 100+ magazines you need to expend during training.
Attached: Original thread from Facebook
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power
The specific question I asked was: Is there any statistically significant advantage to using a larger, heavier bullet than 9mm, speaking STRICTLY in terms of impact effect. The Facebook conversation veered around a lot regarding platform but I wanted to very pointedly talk first about the raw effects of lead hitting meat.
The conclusions that were offered, and what were derived from DocGKR's professional opinion and various other sources, were of two minds: the predominant one was that 9mm, fired into an acceptable radius of accuracy (high thoracic cavity), is perfectly adequate to the task with two rounds fired. P&S Mod Chris Taylor noted that he subscribes to the theory that you should pick the hardest-hitting round that you can fire the most efficiently; however, he agrees that for the vast, overwhelming majority of serious professional end users, the 9mm is more than acceptable as a cartridge choice.
The second question I asked, in case the first question was answered with 'Yes, bigger bullets do better', was the following: at what skill level could a person justifiably argue 'I can manage a harder-hitting round?' This was not answered quite as well and several people offered personal testimony about how they feel they can do very well with one magazine, but no specific metrics (accurate shots/seconds shooting) were suggested.
Given a lack of otherwise persuasive metrics offered, I submit the following: Unless you can perform with your handgun at or near a professional level, passing the shooting qualifications required by your local SWAT/LEO special teams units-- or are competing at near the Master level of USPSA/IDPA-- you likely do not have the core skills required to shift away from 9mm.
The primary takeaway from the Facebook thread was this: Loading a JHP with a bonded bullet, modern 9mm fired into high center mass on a target with reasonable effectiveness are functionally as effective as .40, .45, or 10mm in neutralizing a threat. Looking at terminal ballistics-- the science of bullets hitting targets-- there is no significant difference in effect between any of the major defensive handgun calibers.
It demands noting, as well, that the overwhelming response from the thread was: Even if you can prove 10mm is a better round, it is virtually impossible to fire it at the same level of skill as 9mm. It requires a bigger gun, shooter fatigue sets in much faster, and it's expensive to shoot. And, as someone pointed out, 10mm is not just harder to shoot for the above reasons; it's much more difficult to train with 10mm, particularly compared to a more shooter-friendly round like 9mm. Five magazines of 9mm is not particularly tiring, but 5 magazines of 10mm usually leaves most shooters tapping out early in the training day. So saying 'I only need one magazine in a gunfight' leaves out the 100+ magazines you need to expend during training.
Attached: Original thread from Facebook
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/
http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power