Sympathetic Hand Squeeze

[MLC]

I was doing some dry fire and noticed my front sight moving to the left during the trigger press. I put the gun at sternum height so I could see the top of the slide and sure enough, the front of the gun was moving left during trigger press.
I paid attention and it would seem my not trigger fingers on my strongside hand are squeezing sympathetically with the trigger finger. Does anyone have any suggestions or drills to fix this?

 

[LukeNCMX]

I was doing some dry fire and noticed my front sight moving to the left during the trigger press. I put the gun at sternum height so I could see the top of the slide and sure enough, the front of the gun was moving left during trigger press.
I paid attention and it would seem my not trigger fingers on my strongside hand are squeezing sympathetically with the trigger finger. Does anyone have any suggestions or drills to fix this?

Try the “C” clamp grip.

Here’s a TPC video that explains it:

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Chriscanbreach]

Complicated without seeing you shoot. As the shooter it’s hard for you to really observe what you’re doing and relay it to us.

What gun are you shooting? If it’s a Glock there are some easy diagnostics.

 

[MLC]

Complicated without seeing you shoot. As the shooter it’s hard for you to really observe what you’re doing and relay it to us.

What gun are you shooting? If it’s a Glock there are some easy diagnostics.

Fair point on shooting. Sad though it may be, I haven't actually fired any live rounds since noticing it. The dry fire is being done with a box stock Gen 4 Glock 19.

 

[MLC]

Try the “C” clamp grip.

Here’s a TPC video that explains it:

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Luke, that was solid info, thank you. It seemed to have helped in the short term. I'm definitely going to hit the range this weekend and test it.

 

[Clay1]

I know that this is an older thread, but felt compelled to add this video. For years I shot a handgun with my hand placement and trigger finger placement at either the tip of the finger or splitting the flangial distance (shooting the middle of the pad). I'm noticing that more and more shooters are inserting more finger into the trigger guard and for many, it allows you to pull the trigger straight to the rear.

Note: hand placement, trigger finger placement are shooter specific / not all hands are the same. I am finding this works well for many people though.

I own most of Pat Mac's DVDs and would love to take a course with him one day.

On the Ron Avery video, I'll have to watch that over a few times. What a great trainer Ron Avery was

 

[Runcible]

BLUF: setup your shooting grip to include an element of static muscular opposition to the dynamic movement of the trigger’s press.

(Borrowing from another thread...)

In theory, the optimal grip for my folks as I see it is something along the lines of:

...Shooting-hand as high up on the backstrap as possible, rotated forward sufficient to operate the trigger from rest in one uninterupted stroke when firing one-handed with the thumb flagged up and pressing laterally against the frame.

...Support-hand index-finger choked up high into the intersection of the shooting-hand's middle-finger and the underside of the trigger-guard. The support-hand index-finger may rest between the first and second knuckles of the shooting-hand, or it may clasp against the shooting-side edge of the trigger-guard.

...Support-hand thumb advanced sufficiently far forward so as to be in-line with the trigger finger's tip at full rest, or further; sufficiently far forward that the meaty portion of the support-hand's thumb is pressed high and firmly against the frame (from meaty base near the wrist to the tip at the far end), but not so highly that it interferes with automatic or deliberate functioning of any firecontrols.

...Shooting-hand thumb posts on or between the first two knuckles of the support-hand thumb.

...both elbows rolled over, adding additional contra-rotational pressure within the shooter's grip, loaded primarily between the shooting-hand's first knuckle and the entire length of the support-hand's thumb from first knuckle to tip.

The two main influences for any shooting grip are the requirements for trigger operation and the requirements for managing recoil. There cannot be recoil without trigger manipulation, so the requirements of the initial trigger press have priority over anything related to recoil. More so, there is an ethical weight associated with the performance of some trigger presses but no equivalent for the matter of managing recoil; again, the needs of the trigger win out. Aligning the centerline of the firearm with the web of the hand and the bones of the forearm is mostly associated with "instinctive aim" and greater recoil management; but the former falls by the wayside in the days of using sights and the latter alignment between weapon and forearm bones is only expressed during the one-handed shooting, as the alignment is immediately distorted by any two-handed firing grip.

I don't advocate for any such alignment, nor do I look for it amongst my folks; I don't see the concept to have significant value in the least. I do admit the bias of never having found a weapon that I can effectively fire with such an index, and certainly not any work-issued weapon of the last 16 years.

 

[MLC]

Thank you. That was in depth and very technical, which I appreciate. Since you mentioned it, can you explain what "elbows rolled over" is?

 

[Runcible]

MLC,

BLUF: it's my most colloquial way of conveying to the shooter to torque the gun with both hands in such a manner as leaves each hand attempting to accomplish the impossible task of pinching together at the top; with the concession prize of a tremendous amount of muscular tension being loaded at the upper limits of the shooter's grip right up to the frame/slide seam. It could be likened to a converse application of a collar choke for the bjj crowd. Given the wringing element, it involves the pectoral and trapezius muscles in addition to the forearm and thumb muscular engagement found in traditional shooting grips.

It's a bit less of a mouthful then “load counter-rotational tension onto the gun using your pectorals and trapezius muscles in addition to the forearm and hand muscles you’ve already been using,” which is also less ambiguous than the “roll them in” (as used by some others) for most folks. I guess it’s a matter of over/under vs in/out, so that they can work through what it’s not and back to what is in fact being requested, in the event that the verbiage is new to them.

My experience and observation is that when such a wringing onto the gun is compared to the “clapping” lateral press, it outperforms for most as far as: being gentle upon the elbows, creeping the grip and pressure-exerted higher up on the gun, and shifting recoil from being born largely by the wrists to more the shoulders/back.

Non-shooting indicator for elbows being optimal: are the tips of the elbows more outboard or more downward?

Shooting indicator for elbows being optimal: is there significant articulation of the wrists under recoil?

This sort of technique is certainly biased towards the athletic and/or physically aware, but it absolutely shines with the slight or petite of build when running duty guns with duty chamberings.

 

[MLC]

MLC,

BLUF: it's my most colloquial way of conveying to the shooter to torque the gun with both hands in such a manner as leaves each hand attempting to accomplish the impossible task of pinching together at the top; with the concession prize of a tremendous amount of muscular tension being loaded at the upper limits of the shooter's grip right up to the frame/slide seam. It could be likened to a converse application of a collar choke for the bjj crowd. Given the wringing element, it involves the pectoral and trapezius muscles in addition to the forearm and thumb muscular engagement found in traditional shooting grips.

It's a bit less of a mouthful then “load counter-rotational tension onto the gun using your pectorals and trapezius muscles in addition to the forearm and hand muscles you’ve already been using,” which is also less ambiguous than the “roll them in” (as used by some others) for most folks. I guess it’s a matter of over/under vs in/out, so that they can work through what it’s not and back to what is in fact being requested, in the event that the verbiage is new to them.

My experience and observation is that when such a wringing onto the gun is compared to the “clapping” lateral press, it outperforms for most as far as: being gentle upon the elbows, creeping the grip and pressure-exerted higher up on the gun, and shifting recoil from being born largely by the wrists to more the shoulders/back.

Non-shooting indicator for elbows being optimal: are the tips of the elbows more outboard or more downward?

Shooting indicator for elbows being optimal: is there significant articulation of the wrists under recoil?

This sort of technique is certainly biased towards the athletic and/or physically aware, but it absolutely shines with the slight or petite of build when running duty guns with duty chamberings.

See, now that makes about 973% more sense. I appreciate the specificity of your answer and the patience with which you answered. More to practice and refine and I look forward to it! Thanks again!!

 

[Runcible]

Glad to! My writing can be a bit clunky, so I'm glad for the practice; and I'm aware that some of my ideas are a bit obverse.

 

[MLC]

And now, the update nobody asked for!

I hit the range, using the C-Clamp and rolling my elbows up a bit. One of the things I focused on was trying to relax my strong hand's ring finger a little. I also messed with the placement of my trigger finger, in accordance with PatMac's video. The C-Clamp, elbow rolls and ring finger made a noticeable difference. I couldn't really see much of a difference putting more of my finger on the trigger, but there also wasn't much more finger to put on the aforementioned trigger.

Overall, I've got some refinements in my position to work on and I appreciate the help and attitude of this community.

 

[MLC]

And now, the update nobody asked for!

I hit the range, using the C-Clamp and rolling my elbows up a bit. One of the things I focused on was trying to relax my strong hand's ring finger a little. I also messed with the placement of my trigger finger, in accordance with PatMac's video. The C-Clamp, elbow rolls and ring finger made a noticeable difference. I couldn't really see much of a difference putting more of my finger on the trigger, but there also wasn't much more finger to put on the aforementioned trigger.

Overall, I've got some refinements in my position to work on and I appreciate the help and attitude of this community.

And a slight correction. It was the middle finger on the strong hand, not ring. My apologies, y'all.