Subguns

KevinB

Member
Most agencies are pushing the SMG out -- however it seems that foreign entities - either since they don't shoot folks, or they just finally got a copy of the Princess Gate AAR are running out to buy 9mm guns.

For CONUS LE work - DHS and DOJ have/are going 11.5" 5.56mm and are offering out their data to entities that ask. They will explain why a 9mm (or any pistol cal) sub gun is a subpar option, from multiple options.
 

Curt

Amateur
Showing my time in service but I started on a Beretta M12, then a Colt SMG, then a Steyr M81 and finally an MP5 until 2002. We still have them in our crews. They are pre-86...we could do a lot with them.
 

Darth Tater

Regular Member
My agency issues 16" LMT M4s for Patrol, and 16" M4s were purchased years back for SWAT (S&W, Rock River). Folks can use individually purchased M4s as long as they fall within certain guidelines which are pretty broad. No SBRs allowed. Ironically all agency shotguns are now SBS 14" 870s, and the sub-gun is still revered. We are an all-.45 agency for duty pistols, and SWAT, fugitive, gangs, narcotics, and a few other units have UMP45s. SWAT has select fire (1, 2, unloader) and everyone else has semi-only.
I could go for an hour on the mindset behind the love of the UMP. It has some pros to it...specifically size. Our ammo (200 grain GDHP +P) does really well out of them, and performs really well with intermediate barriers and glass. It took until very recently for SWAT to be allowed to use rifles inside a house on a search warrant (that thing will shoot clear through a school, son!) and still it's met with strong disapproval from some leadership. There is a cultural change going on and it's a very slow one...often requiring retirements for change to occur.

Until then, we will have a lot of UMPs. My sole complaint about it (for unarmored bad guys under 75m) is a shitty trigger. I have a lot more time with an M4 and am generally more comfortable with it, but in some environments and for some applications (low viz/low pro, vehicle assaults) I'm very comfortable with the UMP. If I could rock a 10-12" M4, I'd shelve the UMP. Until then it still has a place for me.
 

Darth Tater

Regular Member
@Bill Blowers, it's ok. We work within the limits we have, right? And I'm a habitual limit-shifter...give me time!

As I was running some guys through UMP zero and qual today I had a convo with a senior team guy who's very dialed in on sub-gun vs. rifle issues. We were wishing we could get away from our current rifle ammo (bonded 64 grain Speer SP) and 16" barrel lengths. Until then, a lot of guys' confidence for up-close engagements will skew towards the UMP45 with the +P 2oo grain GDHP.
 

Darth Tater

Regular Member
Note I said "a lot of guys" not necessarily mine. But I'm a holdout.

In short, we have had bad anecdotal experience with the few shootings we have had with the 64 grain so far. The bonded rounds are showing minimal expansion in people. We had someone take 19 rounds of it (with well placed hits) before they stopped shooting back, as an example.
 
I believe subgun days are over for our department. We had a bunch of MP5s that got phased out for Sig 550's. Now everyone is running Ar's and scatterguns either a 14.5 sbr, 14.5 pinned and welded or 18in gun. We have a 10in 300blk going up to see if the SWAT team wants to use it.
 

Default.mp3

Established
Is the magwell grip a viable way to run an SMG, particularly if it's one of the smaller ones, such as the MP5K or MPX-K? Or would you be better off using the foregrip/handstop combos?
 

Joe R.

Newbie
Default, my experience has been the the forgrip/handstop combo is the way to go vs. a magwell grip. This is based on 8 years working as an Adjunct Instructor for the HK Training Division, so I have a bit of time on subguns.
 
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