Snakeoil! What tactical products are sold as something they are not?

#21
All good to ask why. Gotta back what we say, right?

For me, with 4sevens, most of their lights have a design flaw. They make awesome lights, actually. However, they claim to be weapon and tactical ready. 4sevens lights cannot quickly be turned off and on again without cycling through a plethora of other modes like strobe/s.o.s/beacon.

When trying to effectively use light to your advantage, without giving away your position, you need fast on, and fast off. All that other crap is pointless to me. And it is a shame, really, because i feel they make some decent lights for the price. I simply cannot really rely on them tactically, though.

Also, they are not as robust as Streamlight or Surefire, and when they brake, It will take longer to get it fixed than the American made lights.


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#22
All good to ask why. Gotta back what we say, right?

For me, with 4sevens, most of their lights have a design flaw. They make awesome lights, actually. However, they claim to be weapon and tactical ready. 4sevens lights cannot quickly be turned off and on again without cycling through a plethora of other modes like strobe/s.o.s/beacon.

When trying to effectively use light to your advantage, without giving away your position, you need fast on, and fast off. All that other crap is pointless to me. And it is a shame, really, because i feel they make some decent lights for the price. I simply cannot really rely on them tactically, though.

Also, they are not as robust as Streamlight or Surefire, and when they brake, It will take longer to get it fixed than the American made lights.
I would disagree. 4Sevens lights have been stellar for me and the models I have chosen from their tactical line, which may have changed, have not had the issue mentioned. And to that, it is a design flaw for us, not their primary customer. I would not call that snake oil or a flaw. It would just be something that doesn't suit our needs.

Snake oil, to me, implies some level of deception, dishonesty, or in the case of firearms lubes people talking about things they just don't know.

4Sevens doesn't check any of those boxes for their products that don't meet my needs or what I perceive to to be the needs of others.
 
#23
Thats fine, I just think all those additional modes on their tactical line hinder proper use. And I may be loosly referring to the the term snake oil. I took it more as concept. Either way... They do have a tactical line, and a portion of the public perceives them as effective in that medium. I don't. I cant imagine any training method that can properly implement how they are set up. But maybe it is just me. I am not trying to shoot down your opinion on them. I own and use a couple of them for various things. I use their Preon 2 for searches on the regs.


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#24
I'm not sure we're still talking about the same lights. I have mine set to two distinct modes and there is no clicking through things. It is on/off/click-on/off. Turn the head a little and I access the other mode.

Effectively it is the same as any Surefire light I have had before and doesn't stray from any use of light training I have seen nor does it impede. Other lights of theirs do require endless switch work but not all of them.
 

Default.mp3

Regular Member
#25
Lancer Magazines

*drops the mic*
I would like to hear more about this. I have not heard much in terms of negative reviews on the Lancer AWMs, and currently have been picking them up over gen 2 PMAGs; I guess I won't be doing that anymore, but I would still like to know what's wrong with them.
 
#26
Orionz, I went back and looked at my lights to check what you were saying. Aaaaand I would like to apologize. I clearly do not know the difference between 4sevens and Fenix. I was talking about the fenix PD series.

Call me an idiot, so long as we move on from here, and again, I apologize :)

If you are a huge fan of Fenix, well... lets just not go there for the sake of us being able to guess each other's opinions already. haha.


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#27
Nope, no big deal at all. Never had a Fenix light because of the crap like what you have said that I have heard. I had hands on with a few particular 4Sevens lights and purchased from there.
 

AT Armor

Member
Vendor
#28
There should be some clarification with these as to why they are snakeoil.
WILCO, will expound a bit.

The AR steel armor has two things going for it that had allowed a marketing frenzy to ensue a couple if years ago. First it is cheap. No arguments there, it is the lowest cost option all around. Second is a little less legit. Durability in terms of surviving multiple hits. It is indeed durable, but the reasoning falls apart when compared to reality. The "shtf" / "TEABAGGEDCHEWBACCA" gang and prepper movement has put this one in fantasyland. There are those that tout steel as being able to survive the Apocalypse and multiple run and gun get hit fantasies as compared to ceramics. In reality it just doesn't make sense to trade off attributes of other armor to gain the imagined multiple gunfight capability. Most AR500 buyers that tout this supposed capability as their main decision criteria are ill-informed at best...delusional at worst. Even if one subscribes to the durability argument a quick inspection of steel target stands after a range session will show where those pieces of defeated projectiles go. Long term "Book of Eli" survival comes to a quick end with a copper jacket in an artery.
The two real shortfall of steel is weight (obvious) and a known failing against high velocity fmj...a ubiqutous example of this being xm193. While AR500 can defeat the 193 at lower velocities, inside a certain range / velocity envelope it will get punched through. I am not sure where that velocity band ends (nor do I have much interest in knowing) but IMO it matters not if it becomes effective inches past the muzzle...it is just not worth the risk as common as the xm193 and similar rounds are.
 
#29
WILCO, will expound a bit.

Durability in terms of surviving multiple hits. It is indeed durable, but the reasoning falls apart when compared to reality. The "shtf" / "TEABAGGEDCHEWBACCA" gang and prepper movement has put this one in fantasyland. There are those that tout steel as being able to survive the Apocalypse and multiple run and gun get hit fantasies as compared to ceramics. In reality it just doesn't make sense to trade off attributes of other armor to gain the imagined multiple gunfight capability. Most AR500 buyers that tout this supposed capability as their main decision criteria are ill-informed at best...delusional at worst. Even if one subscribes to the durability argument a quick inspection of steel target stands after a range session will show where those pieces of defeated projectiles go. Long term "Book of Eli" survival comes to a quick end with a copper jacket in an artery.
I thought the durability argument wasn't how many gun shots it will ultimately take but that it didn't expire and if your fought with it you don't have to worry about shattering the ceramics and ruining it?


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AT Armor

Member
Vendor
#30
I thought the durability argument wasn't how many gun shots it will ultimately take but that it didn't expire and if your fought with it you don't have to worry about shattering the ceramics and ruining it?


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You are correct, that is another common fallacy propagated by the steel proponents. We hear that as well, but nearly as often as the multiple gunfight fantasy.

Expiration...no such thing. Armor does not "expire". Warranties run out, but has zero to do with capability at any age. The conditions (storage and use) are what determine longevity of armor.

As far as durability with regard to handling, ceramics are not as fragile as some will state. Reasonable care will give a long service life.
 
#32
Could someone expand on the Skimmer trigger as snake oil who's had experience/issues with it? I hear that one thrown out a lot as bad but haven't been able to find solid explaination as to why yet. Thanks
 
#36
I'd assume so but i never had one to play with. I heard about the issues, went overwatch, confirmed the safeties were all still in play, and never looked back
 
#37
T-Rex arms sidecar. Won't actually make you Instagram famous, or a faster shot, oddly enough. In the end it's a cheaply made holster, one size fits all, that doesn't conceal well, ride well, or last.

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#38
The Safariland RLS light. Good initiative, but it falls apart in execution. If you want hand-held, get a hand-held. If you want a WML, get a WML. There are too many unnecessary movements in manipulating your pistol to get the light on, or to take it back off, before you reholster.
 
#39
I would like to hear more about this. I have not heard much in terms of negative reviews on the Lancer AWMs, and currently have been picking them up over gen 2 PMAGs; I guess I won't be doing that anymore, but I would still like to know what's wrong with them.
Lancers are my favorite mags. I use both Pmags and AWMs. I am not sure what's snake oil about Lancer.

When Pmags came out, I watched several guys have failures at practical rifle matches while I chugged along with USGI Okay mags. Looking back, the difference was most likely the cheaper guns. I had a built Sabre Defense gun with all high end components, while a bunch of the guys at the rifle matches had DPMS, Olympics and RRAs.
 
#40
Strike Industries Jellyfish RMR cover. Can't see through it and the complaints of the RMR lens becoming obscured are greatly over exaggerated.