shotgun or subgun as cq weapon

big jon

Newbie
hi you all from ky. looking for some imput from you more expernced guys on my set up. i got a ar10 that a pretty sweet shooter but i say most would say 308 a little much around the house lol. so i am looking for a close rang set up i am not a cop or in the service just a farm boy looking to protect my people.

here is my thinking so far growing up in the backwoods of ky i had a shotgun in my hands from the time i could pick one up. so pump or auto both i know how to run and thank the lord never had to pull the trigger on a person but i have seen what buckshot and slugs did on vermits that went after the livestock and the deer cows and pig we shot.

never shot a subgun but from what i have read their high points seem to be more ammo; faster reloads; the same ammo as your handgun; longer rang if needed without switching round; and lastly not as heavy recoil and i like that becuse it would be easier teaching my wife.


so would you guys say my thinking is right? what would your moves be in my shoes
 

tylerw02

Regular Member
The AR15 recoils less than a sub gun, in many cases won’t penetrate as many walls depending on ammo, has more capacity, and has superior modularity. A Colt 6920 or similar with a weapon light, Aimpoint T2, and good two point sling does everything you could ask.


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Stanislao

Regular Member
Small projectiles tend to destabilize or disintegrate when they encounter walls. Larger projectiles are less affected. Keep in mind that even a hollow point 5.56 will likely be dangerous on the other side of a interior wall, though possibly keyholing and following an altered trajectory.

Whatever your home defense gun is, the projectiles it fires are likely to exit the house if they do not strike a person. 5.56 *may* not be particularly dangerous after an interior and then exterior wall, 9mm likely will be and 12 gauge slugs will almost certainly be dangerous.
 

Barry B

Regular Member
Assuming we are talking inside the home, not reaching out to address a threat…. I’m not an expert, but I would take shotgun first for home defense, with 00 buckshot, no slugs. Pistol next (I have 9mm and 10mm). I would pick up my suppressed G19 with 20 round ish mag installed. I would not pick up my AR unless absolutely necessary. I have dwellings at 50 yards and consider those at risk for stray rounds with everything I just mentioned, in order of mention. Additionally, I would say that the order of mention is not the order of stopping power… I’d say that goes shotgun, AR, then pistol.
 

Barry B

Regular Member
Assuming we are talking inside the home, not reaching out to address a threat…. I’m not an expert, but I would take shotgun first for home defense, with 00 buckshot, no slugs. Pistol next (I have 9mm and 10mm). I would pick up my suppressed G19 with 20 round ish mag installed. I would not pick up my AR unless absolutely necessary. I have dwellings at 50 yards and consider those at risk for stray rounds with everything I just mentioned, in order of mention. Additionally, I would say that the order of mention is not the order of stopping power… I’d say that goes shotgun, AR, then pistol.
Sorry - risk is reverse order of mention. Tired.
 

CD228

Amateur
cool i thought the 223 was bad for over penetratein
Actually, the opposite. Small high velocity rounds tend to fragment and come apart after hitting walls and the like (As long as you stay away from AP, Steel Core and similar).

To your question

Shotguns can produce devastating wounds at close range. But the trade off is limited magazine capacity and high recoil. Semi-Autos are becoming more and more prevalent due to the availabilities of the highly reliable Benelli and Berretta models. The issue of short stroking pump guns under stress has been reported by more then one combat shotgun instructor (peruse training class AARs) and remember the the Remington Flex Tab . Of course a pump gun is usually cheaper then a semi auto. An advantage to a shotgun is the ability to transition to a slug if something like bear wanders into the farm or the ability to swap to a bird barrel if you need to hunt for food.

Unless you are dropping serious coin on a class III weapon you are probably talking about a Pistol Caliber Carbine or a "Pistol" that is basically an SBR without a stock. Pistol caliber cartridges have lethality limits , read Clint Smith's Article "Handguns Suck. take a look at Ballistics by the inch a 9mm in 16" barrel gets you maybe 100-300 FPS increase in velocity over a 4" , depending on the round used. The Pistol Caliber carbine, when configured IAW ATF regulations (16" barrel) is the same size as a 5.56mm carbine. So you have the same size factor and a reduced lethality from a 5.56mm carbine. Where the pistol caliber subgun offers a notable is if you are in an SBR or pistol config. A H&K MP5K, MAC 10, Scorpion is notably smaller than a MK 18. Also below a certain barrel length 10-11.5 5.56mm DI guns have reliability considerations.
 

CD228

Amateur
I'd also recommend checking out the Primary and Secondary Podcasts on youtube. A number of recognized experts have weighted in on this topic and other related ones like terminal ballistics. It'll require a couple hours of your life, but you will be better informed as a result. Also check out some of DR Gary Roberts writings as well. Dimiao's book Gunshot wounds is also informative.
 
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kb377

Newbie
cool i thought the 223 was bad for over penetratein

Several years ago, we did a test of of various duty rounds carried by guys on our SWAT team years ago using an apartment building that was about to be razed.

We stood at the front door and fired diagonally across the living room toward the rear bedroom (with a bathroom in between).

We fired 9mm, .40, and .45 from various duty pistols (I don't remember what round we were issues at the time...but I believe it was Fed. HS)., 9mm from an MP5, and .223 from a 20" M16A2.

All the handgun rounds penetrated through the livingroom/bathroom wall and the bathroom/bedroom wall...with varying degrees of penetration into the exterior bedroom wall. The .223 (55gr Fed hp) penetrated the initial livingroom/bathroom wall then fragmented, with pieces of varying sizes embedding in the sheetrock of the second wall.

We used this unscientific test to get our Chief to start letting us trade our MP5's for 10.5" AR entry weapons, as he was always under the mindset of "An AR15 will shoot through several houses!".
 

PM07

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
I did not see that coming! Good information.
The 5.56 over penetration myth has been debunked by the FBI FTU, Buford Boone, quite a while back. Shotguns with the appropriate rounds will do the job, as will pistols or ARs. It all depends on your particular skill set with the weapon you choose, doing your research and buying the correct ammunition.
 

Barry B

Regular Member
That makes sense, but a miss with a .223 - if it doesn’t hit anything - is a risk to what distance vs say a pistol round? Assuming both are shot perfectly level to the ground? I would think that a miss with no obstruction with a .223 is a risk at greater distances than a pistol round.

But It’s good to know that if it hits things it’s not the devil as some have said. I learned something.
 

jnc36rcpd

Regular Member
You mentioned that you have had a shotgun in your hands since you were old enough to pick one up. If that is the case, stay with the shotgun. It is generally better to choose equipment for a skill set than to create a skill set around equipment.
A pistol (or, I say reluctantly, a revolver) should be your first home defense firearm. Long arms cannot e safely nor discreetly wielded as one answers the door .
If you have the time, money, and interest to learn the way of the rifle, go for it. It will reduce the risk of over-penetration from many shotgun and pistol rounds.
Barry B, a 5.56 or .233 round will certainly reach out and touch somebody in a a bad way much further than a pistol or shotgun round will. This is a valid concern. That said, unless one is in a perfectly flat desert with no vegetation or structures, any round fired is likely to hit somethin g(a car fender, a tree, an outhouse) before it reaches its maximum range.
 
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