Security systems

Madkow

Newbie
I am in need of a a multi-faceted system to include interior and exterior of two structures with additional perimeter security. My idea is to do some sort of standard combination of interior motion with door and window switches for the house. Same with the shop. This would be most likely installed and maintained by a company/provider. Alternate power sources and communication TBD. Secondly, I would like to utilize a few cameras on the exterior of the buildings and try to keep these at minimum numbers while still capturing most points of entry. Third, I need to camera the entry gate and maybe the drive down( specifically for vehicle ID), as well as photo eye trigger for audible alert inside buildings. The camera portion I would look to do myself, separate from the alarm company. I would build a secure server/DVR storage with ventilation and mount the hardware and wiring myself. Cameras can/would be stainless pipe/pole mounted with wiring protected internally and conduit or direct buried.

From those with experience either personally or professionally, how does this initial plan sound? Equipment recommendations, wiring methods, layout coverage vs. height, IR night in conjunction with exterior lighting concerns.

The buildings will get alarmed first thing and the exterior and perimeter stuff would be at my leisure to lower the cost.

Any experience or recommendations are welcome. If someone can point towards a solid local company that deals with this, a consult would probably be a good thing. With this, I am looking for true security consultants, not necessarily a consult from ADT(but a company like them will most likely be involved with the interior.

If this subject matter does not fit the forum profile, feel free to kill it.

Thanks guys
 

Eggroll43

Newbie
I can remember a thread on LF that went over this. Might be outdated. Forgot who did security alarm installs though...borebrush?
 

EKinOR

Amateur
Vendor
I've been using a SimpliSafe alarm system with no complaints for over a year. Self installed (wireless) and no contracts. Three different monitoring levels available. The top level has full smart phone support.
 

JakAttak

Newbie
I don't know anything about alarms but I've been using PC based DVR since the mid 90s. Build for AT LEAST twice as many cameras as you think you want now. Trust me you'll want more very soon. Use ip cameras and wire them in, wireless is for amateurs. For software I suggest BlueIris. It has the ability to use cameras from a buttload of manufacturers without paying a per camera license fee. With the added bonus of costing only $50. I'd suggest looking into hikvision for cameras, unless you have deep pockets then you can buy name brand HW. To power them grab a used POE or power over Ethernet switch off of eBay. That way you only have to pull cat5e to your camera locations.
 

Pat Tarrant

Custom testicles
Staff member
Moderator
I'm interested in doing a camera / security system as well. However, I'm leery of wireless systems. How secure are they? The last thing I want is someone to hijack the camera and freeze / alter the image.
 

Lobsterclaw207

Regular Member
I've been looking for a reliable, residential based camera system for years with no luck. All of them seem to have some shortcoming, either not good enough image quality, not good enough storage options, no alerts I can get on my phone reliably, or a terrible app.

My ideal system:

3-4 cameras.
High enough quality to identify license plates on vehicles. As a police officer, this is a MUST. I've seen more stupid grainy footage of a blob that might be a sedan, and the victims expect me to CSI that shit to see the suspect off the reflection on the interior of the windshield and ID them. NOPE. Registration plates. I can find your ass or who had the car that way.
At least 30 days of storage that automatically overwrites.
A phone app that lets me view any of the cameras, but also sends me a push alert upon certain events, like motion in the driveway.
If the app doesn't preserve the images that led to the motion alert, an automatically sent email with those images so I can determine why the motion alert went off.
Less than $600ish total.
 

Integramax

Newbie
Lobsterclaw,

You raise some very excellent points. I have some solid answers for you.

In addition to having been the primary detective assigned to retrieve video from crime scenes for a mid-sized agency, I hold a master's degree in computer information systems.

I'm now the president of Integramax, where one of our core competencies is the installation of high-end video surveillance systems. All of our consultants are active and/or retired law enforcement. Unlike generic technology companies or the burglar alarm guy, several of us including myself have supported video evidence in court and secured convictions.

You could not be more correct about a vast majority of the video surveillance systems out there being completely useless with regard to probative value as evidence. As we note on the video surveillance page on the company website, the frustration of extracting low quality video is what led to our getting into this business.

Fortunately, there are products out there now that produce incredible video quality in all sorts of lighting conditions. That said, even the most budget friendly product out there (rebranded Hikvision), would cost us nearly $1,000 at wholesale from a decent reseller. And we buy in substantial quantities.

The only way that you would get near your price range would be to take a chance on grey market stuff directly from China. I don't recommend that as it can be an absolute crap shoot with regard to getting hacked firmware. As Pat Rogers was fond of saying, "buy cheap, buy twice."

And even at $1,000, you are not going to get accurate motion detection. Any of the traditional systems that analyze the video itself are going to have a TON of false positives. Think an alert for every single moth and mosquito in the summer. Snow and/or rain? It's going to record the entire time, filling up your storage.

For truly accurate motion detection you are going to have to step up to Mobotix, which is made in Germany. That company's MxActivity sensor is absolutely amazing. Even without the thermal option, there are next to zero false alarms for motion, even in absolutely awful weather. Indoors, that number actually is zero.

They are eventually going to put the burglar alarm industry out of business (like pretty much anyone who has been a patrol cop, I detest the burglar alarm industry, as better than 95% of EID activations the police are dispatched to are false alarms).

Plates are VERY difficult, even with Mobotix M15s at nearly $1,400 a pop. The only way to get them reliably is at a choke point. Outside of 50-60 feet, it is absolutely a crapshoot. Especially at night.

I suggest checking out the Integramax Security Camera Basics page, which is designed to bring you up to speed quickly via clear, concise, bullet points. We created this in response to user feedback, as people were looking for something shorter than our Understanding Video Surveillance document which is in a longer format as an FAQ. If you have the time, I absolutely recommend progressing to the latter document. It's incredibly comprehensive for just 15 pages. After reading it, you will know more than a lot of people who do this for a living.

You will notice that both are essentially free of marketing materials for our company, except for a very brief explanation of what we do at the very end of each document. Our goal is simply to educate consumers, as I have seen some really unethical stuff done by other companies on projects where we have been brought in to clean up someone else's mistake.

We don't do much in the way of individual sales, and we don't sell equipment online (or even locally without an install). That said, as Chappy is fond of saying, "cops help cops, period." Feel free to reach out to me offline. If I can't get you what you need an an untouchable good guy price, I will help you find it and support you on the install.
 

Integramax

Newbie
I'm interested in doing a camera / security system as well. However, I'm leery of wireless systems. How secure are they? The last thing I want is someone to hijack the camera and freeze / alter the image.
Security is not the issue with "wireless" cameras. The problem is that they are not actually wireless. Only the data transmission is wireless. They still need a big fat wire for power, in the form of 110V AC. In addition to looking horrible with a big black "wall wart" transformer near the camera, AC power is far more expensive/difficult to run than the single Ethernet cable used in wired systems. Finally, there is actually a security issue present, as a perp can reach up and unplug the camera.

JakAttak is right on the money in that PoE is the way to go. Hikvision is absolutely your best bang for the buck, but a vast majority of the stuff sold in the US carrying a Hikvision label is actually grey market. You are actually better off with rebadged stuff, as the American company whose name is on it will provide the warranty and support. He is also correct in that you should always go bigger than you need (gun safes are a good analogy here).

The only thing I would disagree with is using BlueIris (or any PC-based software). If you are running a substantial number of cameras at very high resolution, it's going to slow even a thoroughbred of a PC to a crawl. It pretty much becomes a dedicated NVR at that point.

Moreover, PCs are very large and conspicuous. If a perp does decide to breach the perimeter despite visible cameras being present, there is a good chance that your PC will be leaving under his arm. I'm not going to compromise OPSEC here, but there are much better ways to mitigate this with NVRs.

Thus, a rebadged Hikvision NVR is the way to go here. That company's camera offerings are the absolute definition of a disruptive innovation. That being said, it was recently revealed that Hikvision is essentially owned by the Chinese government. I wouldn't call this a total show stopper for residential and/or small business installs (as long as you know what you are doing and manage security properly). That said, my distributor recently told me in confidence that they have gotten more than one call in the past year from someone at a government agency whose role includes sensitive work requesting a quote on Hikvision systems :eek:
 
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