KyPlinker
Amateur
The other day I posted the question...
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We discussed this last night in Network Support chat, and it resulted in a good conversation, so I figured it would garner even more debate in the public eye. There are a few questions below, but they all relate to different aspects of the same topic.
In regards to the RMR on handguns, given the failure rate post, as well as the anti flicker plate post, where electrical tape was mentioned as a fix, why is it okay to condone an item such as the RMR for duty use, when it couldbe argued that it is still developing technology?
If electrical tape was recommended as a fix on any other life saving device, would it still be acceptable?
Do the gains you receive from a dot outweigh the potential risk of failure, for whatever reason? Why is it an acceptable weak point on an otherwise reliable system?"
Responses were both varied and informative.
The TL;DR of the issue, is that while RMRs are not the optimal solution, currently, they are a means to an end, and by using them, and providing feedback to the manufacturers, we are helping the optics community move towards a MORE optimal solution, one which has all of the advantages with none of the potential drawbacks.
The dots are here to stay, but they are a tech that is still in development, and that must be kept in mind when advocating for their use.
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Luke Gordon We accept it because the RMR is the best option right now.
Yes the overall gains are worth it. If the dot goes down the gun doesn't magically stop working. Use your backups, fill that window up with bad guy and shoot.
Like · Reply · 3 · November 24 at 3:17pm
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Jacob Sharp Gains in regard to speed, accuracy, or both?
Like · Reply · November 24 at 3:19pm
Luke Gordon Jacob Sharp certainly accuracy especially at distance. The fast drill being completed with a RMR shows the speed issues are not real.
Like · Reply · 1 · November 24 at 3:21pm
Jacob Sharp Would the dot going off not being an issue be relegated solely to RMRed guns with full sized cowitness sights?
I ask in comparison to some of the options like the Suarez or Balor that have a dash or short mounted sights, etc...
Like · Reply · November 24 at 3:26pm
Luke Gordon Jacob Sharp no idea I only have a Balor, which has pretty useless backups.
Unlike · Reply · 2 · November 24 at 3:37pm
Jacob Sharp Luke Gordon so in that situation, (and this isn't a dig at your setup, simply a conversation prompt), loss of the dot would render the long range benefits of the set up useless, considering the Balor integrated sights, (or any similar setup)?
Like · Reply · November 24 at 3:44pm
Luke Gordon correct, but I found if that window is mostly filled with target, you will hit it.
Unlike · Reply · 1 · November 24 at 3:56pm
Roland Deschaintull balors BUIS are FAR from worthless. I put mine on my gun, zero'd the RDS and then shot the Irons for shits and grins. I fired a 6ish inch group at 25 yards with the Balor BUIS. the group as about a foot low at 25.
Matthew A Jacques has pictures of ...See More
Unlike · Reply · 13 · November 24 at 4:09pm
Jacob Sharp Roland Deschaintull Roger. Good information.
Like · Reply · 1 · November 24 at 4:11pm
Luke Gordon Roland Deschaintull ill have to give them more work, thanks for the hope.
Like · Reply · 1 · November 24 at 4:16pm
Roland Deschaintull it's a lollypop guys. we all percieve it a little different. all you guys have to do to be successful is be CONSISTENT with how you are lining that dot up with the rear post and then memorize your Kentucky windage for your distances.
if you focus o...See More
Unlike · Reply · 7 · November 24 at 4:32pm
Luke Gordon good to know!"
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Ashton Ray Some serious minded folks don't recommend them for serious use for just this reason.
It is an analysis that must be done by each individual.
If your eyes are bad, and the dot gives you a very large performance increase, the answer may not be the same as someone shooting a sub 5 sec FAST with good eyes on irons.
Unlike · Reply · 3 · November 24 at 3:47pm · Edited
Jacob Sharp So essentially this is an example of a potentially, (not always, but potentially), sub par option being recommended within a certain context?
Akin to Roland's use of the Eotech? (Aka for his context the issues were minimized because he was changing batteries before every mission, etc...)
Like · Reply · November 24 at 3:48pm
Ashton Ray Jacob Sharp that's how I see it. (No pun intended)
Unlike · Reply · 1 · November 24 at 3:50pm
Matt Prime Who are the serious minded folks?"
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Brock Elliott This has been a reoccurring topic in my discussion with a few guys about investing in an RMR, the slide work, etc. If my irons work no shit, is the hassle, money, and time worth it should it break? That's the mental tug of war I've been playing. So far, hours of research, reading, video watching of Modcasts the conclusion is that it's worth it.
Unlike · Reply · 2 · November 24 at 3:47pm
Jacob Sharp Just briefly/generally speaking, what are your conclusions so far as to the main points in favor of the RMR over irons, given its potential for failure?
Like · Reply · 1 · November 24 at 3:49pm
Brock Elliott Couple points Jacob Sharp. You're continually receiving feedback from the dot while presenting the pistol. Improves and hones skill with the firearm fundamentals in general. Distance shooting improves specifically 25+yds. Plus they're f'n cool. But to be honest I don't have any experience with one so the items I'm naming are reasons I will be purchasing one. I guess I'm just regurgitating info Ive hears and soaked up from reading and listening to those w experience."
"Shawn Hinck Tape is a an acceptable fix because it's fixing the issue, pure and simple. Not every fix needs to be fancy. As for failure rates, it is a concern, but for me, the reward outweighs the risk. My acceptable sight picture is now putting the dot on the target, I'm no focusing on the front sight either. It's the best option out there, but we are seeing the electronics on the RMR improving constantly. But my personal thoughts are, 3 guns with RMRs, one for carry, one for training and one for comp. if any one of them go down, I have a back up. The chances of that RMR breaking it go way down if I'm not constantly shooting it for training.
Scott Wolf Jacob Sharp, you stated: "If electrical tape was recommended as a fix on any other life saving device, would it still be acceptable?"
I have a question about your statement. Is the issue because the “fix” is something as simple as tape? If thats the fix, and it works, is it any less valid than a convoluted or extraneous fix that renders the same results?
As for life saving devices. An FAA certified parachute rigger can sew a piece of similar parachute fabric on a hole of a parachute, clearly a life saving device, and it can remain airworthy. In a similar vein to the electrical tape fix, a FAA parachute rigger can also use a parachute sticky patch, which is much like tape, one side is sticky, that is made out of parachute material and apply it to a hole on a parachute and have it again remain airworthy and safe for someone to jump until a more permanent patch can be sewn on.
Ultimately, what is being recommended, is a “shim” of sorts, to increase the tension/tolerance to a higher level. Again, something that is done quite often on many things, some of which might even be considered life saving. An old adage comes to mind in this instance. “If its stupid and it works, it isn’t stupid”
So if we are to all agree on the benefits of an RMR and have identified corrective action to potential weak points, and taken steps to mitigate them , if and when they present themselves, that leaves us with a very old argument, that many don’t even consider an issue these days. That being the fact of it using a battery and “batteries fail”. All the old school farts used to go on and on about this when electronics first started making an appearance in the industry/profession and “that will get you killed”. It’s something that most probably don’t even remember and or don’t consider to be an issue today.
So ultimately, I think it boils down to what level of risk is an individual willing to take and what steps can he take to mitigate as many of those risks as possible to meet his comfort and confidence level with the item. This will vary from person to person, no doubt, but at the end of the day, it’s what each person will have to ask themselves.
Unlike · Reply · 8 · November 24 at 3:53pm
Jacob Sharp My question is, should we be condoning an object that is still in a phase that requires such a fix in the first place, considering it's a primary sighting system? Doesn't that go against our usual duty grade mantra?
We don't recommend Eotechs here for a reason, given the failure rates and other issues, wouldn't RMRs be in the same boat?
If not, why do we make an exception for them?
Like · Reply · 1 · November 24 at 3:58pm
Scott Wolf Jacob Sharp not to go down a rabbit hole and or change the subject, but how many years were we using Eotechs, and slaying dudes on the two way range with them? No need for anyone to reply, its a question meant more for people, like yourself who have the same question, to think about and apply to this topic. RMRs work and for some, they work really well and have a quantifiable benefit over iron/traditional sights. For some, and as I alluded to above, the benefits outweigh the risks that have been identified in their mind. So I don't think its so much as making an exception as it is individuals making their own educated choices.
Unlike · Reply · 1 · November 24 at 4:12pm
Jacob Sharp Scott Wolf absolutely concur. Various solutions have put bad guys in the dirt for years.
But truly optimal as per the P&S mantra?
Like · Reply · November 24 at 4:14pm
Scott Wolf Jacob Sharp not to change the subject or piss in anyones wheaties here, but perhaps this is an instance where common sense based on real world experiences and acceptance of risk(s) makes more sense than a self imposed mantra? Perhaps they should be gu...See More
Unlike · Reply · 2 · November 24 at 4:30pm · Edited
Jacob Sharp Scott Wolf same page.
Like · Reply · November 24 at 4:29pm"
Steve Fisher Who
Cares if it works I have used tape foil. Beer can shims. Etc.
Unlike · Reply · 12 · November 24 at 4:03pm
Bill Blowers Well let's see, I just took the head of a scout light to a belt grinder to relieve space to fit under MAWL better, I routinely modify pouches/gear to my liking with Shock cord, para cord, home sewing and so forth, I made my own jumper cable from MAWL to Scout, so forth and so on.
But I have not needed tape under any of my 3 so far. If I did, it wouldn't bother me at all
Unlike · Reply · 13 · November 24 at 4:06pm
Scott Jedlinski I just pull up the battery tabs a little. No shims. Just lucky I guess.
Unlike · Reply · 7 · November 24 at 4:12pm
Roland Deschaintull roll the dice. if your pistol jams within the first 5,000 rounds it is no different than an RMR flickering out.
if that had been an OIS at that exact bullet, your weapon would have failed you in a gunfight. why is that acceptable, but an RMR that dies is un acceptable.
You are betting your life that the shots needed at the moment of truth will not be the shots after your gun goes empty, after your weapon has a malfunction, or the RDS fails. I'll take that bet.
Unlike · Reply · 21 · November 24 at 4:26pm
Shane Fitch I see this argument about the same as the people who argue against optics on rifles. ANY electronic optic has a chance of failure no matter what the maker. Aimpoint, Trijicon, whomever. Be it battery compartment, battery or just simple electronics failure. The 'failure' rate is not consistent nor is it an absolute on the RMR, look at Bill for example.The gains far outweigh the cons. There is a reason for back up sights, same as on a rifle. Same as a red dot on a rifle, some people think its a majic fix for shitty shooting techniques, improper presentation, grip , etc. Then they get one installed and dont practice with it and they are like "optics on pistols suck" blah blah. It takes a dedicated effort to learn. Wether or not the gains are worth the individuals time and effort, is up to them to decide.
Mick Brown Hell Shane Fitch, as a quality systems specialist, I'm going to suggest any object made by man is prone to failure if some sort.
Reduced probability for some items maybe, but still a real possibility.
So iron sights can still fail/be knocked around/broken.
Like · Reply · 1 · November 25 at 1:08am
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Sierra Tango I'm guessing that's one of the reasons that Sig's shooter Max Michele is using a C-More on his RTS on his 320. They seem to hold up to his thousands of rounds.
Like · Reply · November 24 at 4:46pm
Scott Jedlinski That or they pay him a lot. Never seen a CMORE on a serious defensive pistol. Anybody else seen one on a carry gun?
Like · Reply · 7 · November 24 at 4:52pm
Roland Deschaintull nope
Like · Reply · 5 · November 24 at 4:56pm
Sierra Tango Scott Jedlinski don't believe he pays for them but he pulled off the Sig Romeos for the C-More.
Like · Reply · November 24 at 5:09pm
Scott Jedlinski Sierra Tango...he is sponsored and is paid by them. He did not pull off the Romeo. He had a stock 320 milled for the C-More.
Like · Reply · November 24 at 5:18pm
Sierra Tango Scott Jedlinski I know one of those slides was going to be mine LOL. He gets priority at the gunsmith
Like · Reply · November 24 at 6:01pm
Shannon Campbell LOL...
Earl Henderson I have no experience with the RMR. Just knowledge from reading articles and comments etc. I was a little surprised to say the least about the failure rates that were mentioned in the comments a while back. I think you hit the nail on on the head about whether or not it's acceptable to have Life saving equipment that requires electrical tape to make it work.
If I had the money to blow what I would do based off what I know right now is I would have a duty sight mounted on a duty gun and then have an extra same gun and sight as a training weapon that will take the abuse from training and practice.
Roland Deschaintull I NEVER goto the range without 2 slides. so my "EDC" is gonna be my primary trainer gun and Im gonna beat that shit up. If my optic dies I swap to an iron slide.
once i get to about 5K, i move the RMR to a hobby gun and rotate a new (or fresh refurb) onto the RS.
it's not a big deal. if you get the rds, you get it, the rest of you dudes that are not sold, you are fighting preconceptions and institutional inertia to try and make the call.
those of us that have drank the cool aid know the shortcommings of all of the platforms and are willing to put in the effort to keep them up and running.
if you are a 1911 guy and wont trust RDS, choke yourself.
Dudes will stay on time of parts replacement based upon round count, but you mention that about RDS and they lose their fucking minds.
Unlike · Reply · 34 · November 24 at 7:45pm · Edited
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Steve Fisher Shut the fuck up with logic and shit let's go back to 9mm vs 45
Like · Reply · 26 · November 24 at 7:51pm
Brock Elliott This has been my mindset the past few months as I went from unconsciously incompetent to consciously incompetent and hopefully moving forward to consciously competent as I learn and research and actually use one. I was under the initial impression that...See More
Like · Reply · November 24 at 7:55pm
Mick Brown Fleet management's a thing?
Who woulda thunk it?
Like · Reply · 1 · November 25 at 1:10am
Roland Deschaintull rotated and balanced...... um I mean zero'd
Like · Reply · November 25 at 3:38pm
Thomas Victa Honestly I used to be against dots on pistols due to just that. But based on some extensive testing the newer MRD sights are really approaching no shit good life. The RMR is a great sight and offers a lot to the shooter once he/she puts in the reps. Th...See More
Like · Reply · 1 · November 25 at 3:44pm
Roland Deschaintull ^^^^ This dude know stuff and thangs. +1 That I have yet to see a Delta Point Pro shit the bed, but if you aint got a dot in your sight picture it's cause that fucker has like EO Tech battery life.
Like · Reply · 1 · November 25 at 4:04pm
Nino Granzotti Roland Deschaintull Does rotating the RMRs on one slide require cutting the slide for both, or is this a non-issue. Good info, thx.
Like · Reply · November 25 at 6:07pm
Roland Deschaintull i have had to file off material from the RMR housing if it was out of spec.
Like · Reply · 1 · November 25 at 6:09pm
Thomas Victa Roland Deschaintull we did kill one somewhere around 40-45k with a steady diet of 147 +p. The only thing worse on a gun is the RA9TA. I think we cooked about a dozen batteries along the way to the point of delaminating. The batteries fail well before the sights. So there is that problem, but that may be related to the way we shoot.
Like · Reply · 1 · November 25 at 6:23pm
Steve Fisher Thomas stop with logic
Next you will tell
Me...See More
Like · Reply · 3 · November 25 at 6:48pm
Aaron Cowan I double fed a 5.7 once.
Like · Reply · 3 · November 25 at 6:58pm
Thomas Victa Don't get me started on pistol malfunctions Steve...
Like · Reply · November 25 at 7:02pm
Steve Fisher Don't hate cause it all
Worked
Like · Reply · November 25 at 7:04pm
Jonathan Mahfouz This had been something I have been debating with my Glocks. I'd like to RMR both my 19 and 17, but that's A LOT of money. I guess it's going to be more research on my part. I also understand the problem with the tape solution, at leads in my mind. For a $700+ optic, I feel like 'put a piece of tape on it' isn't really an acceptable solution. Hopefully the manufactures will remedy the issue by the time I have the cash to pursue the upgrades.
Like · Reply · November 24 at 10:03pm
Shawn Hinck Manufactures can't control battery inconsistencies or people cutting slides or plates making them in such a way that cause issues. I'll also add, I'll take a piece of tape over the RMR being as tall as all of the other options out there
Like · Reply · 1 · November 24 at 10:07pm
Jonathan Mahfouz This is true. I was under the impression that it was more of a contact issue with the optic, than a battery issue. Like I said, it's just stuff mulling in my head for future projects, so I'll definitely be doing a lot more research before I make a decision. Which is why I'm on here haha.
Like · Reply · November 24 at 10:11pm
Scott Jedlinski So we are all ok with lubing our guns over and over again so they work correctly but put one piece of tape on the gun and we lose our minds.
I need to make a Joker meme in Off-topic.
Like · Reply · 12 · November 24 at 10:24pm · Edited
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Jacob Sharp Bad analogy.
Lubing/maintaining a gun is one thing, having an optic on a carry gun potentially require modifications in order to function as advertised is another entirely, at least in my mind.
I think we are putting too much focus on the tape part of my OP. The real heart of the issue, is do the benefits of the dot outweigh the potential failures, and furthermore if they do, how is that any different than a guy saying he prefers an Eo because he thinks the reticle is superior?
One item we recommend, the other we don't? I'm having a hard time understanding the why. If the benefits can be shown to outweigh the potential failures, than that's an answer I will accept, but I think blind endorsement of any product without acknowledging/mentioning its limitations is opposite of what we try to do here.
Does that make more sense? Maybe my initial post was poorly worded.
Like · Reply · November 24 at 10:37pm
Jacob Sharp Like for you I understand, because you have vision issues. For you the benefits outweigh the potential cons.
Is this the case for someone with 20/20 though?
Like · Reply · November 24 at 10:38pm
Shawn Hinck Because the eotech has a real issue that can't be fixed with a preventative measure.
Like · Reply · 1 · November 24 at 11:29pm
Jacob Sharp Shawn Hinck is this possibly and issue made less important due to the simple lack of other available options?
I feel like even with Eo, if there was a fix, you would still have people saying "why pay $500 for something that needs to be fixed out of the box when I could buy an aimpoint that works".
With the RMR, you either make it work, jump up in bulk to a t1 which still has its own potential issues, (albeit less disastrous ones), or downgrade to something even less reliable.
Do we make due simply because it's one of our few available options?
Like · Reply · November 24 at 11:33pm
Shawn Hinck And if there was something like the RMR that was as compact, durable and reliable we would be saying that, but at this point there isn't anything that matches. But the eotechs don't have a fix, and a small strip of tape is a small price to pay for the ...See More
Like · Reply · November 24 at 11:41pm
Scott Jedlinski Jacob Sharp And for the record your judgment of my analogy is, well, poor.
LOL. Just kidding.
Unlike · Reply · 1 · November 25 at 12:46pm · Edited
Douglas Holloway I take acception to your statement "function as advertised" as we all know or should that the RMR was NEVER designed to ride a slide of a handgun.
Like · Reply · 2 · November 25 at 4:56pm
Jacob Sharp Douglas Holloway but that still doesn't make the analogy any more true.
Lubrication is not a developed modification required to make the gun function. It's a necessary task. ...See More
Like · Reply · November 25 at 5:01pm
Jacob Sharp Furthermore I understand that the RMR is being pushed outside of its performance window, but that doesn't make the analogy any more accurate.
Like · Reply · November 25 at 5:02pm
Douglas Holloway I never said anything about the analogy. I'm sorry if that was unclear but I even directly quoted what I was commenting on. *shrugs*
Like · Reply · November 25 at 5:05pm
Shawn Hinck This is more akin to taking a mag light and expecting it to attach to an ar handguard. The RMR is not made to ride a slide, yet that's what it's being used for. Adaptions were made and it has done a pretty good job adapting to it
Unlike · Reply · 1 · November 25 at 5:07pm
Jacob Sharp The context of the comment that you quoted is crucial.
*shrugs*
Like · Reply · November 25 at 5:07pm
Jacob Sharp Shawn Hinck concur
Like · Reply · November 25 at 5:08pm
Scott Jedlinski Jacob Sharp...I think the tape/mod has more to do with the milling/mount than the RMR itself. Doug's guns do not need tape or a sealing plate because of the tight fit.
As far as the analogy, lubrication of the gun is necessary depending on level of use and the environment. A modification such as tape is similar because it may or may not be needed depending on the gun ie the RMRs environment. COREs need it but ATEi guns do not.
Furthermore, my point is that lubing a gun consistently takes more time and effort than putting one piece of tape on once. I believe this is where we say the proverbial molehill is made into a mountain.
Unlike · Reply · 1 · November 25 at 5:09pm · Edited
Douglas Holloway Incorrect, The "tape mod" helps* to keep the battery from moving around too much which will slow the galvonic corrosion which will STILL happen over time.
If you bend the side tab a bit it will work better then tape.
Tape is a bandaid along with the new fancy "bump" seal plate that some guy made without knowing the "why's" behind things that happen. But I'm sure he'll sell a bunch anyway. *rolleyes*.
As far as the regular seal plate....it is always needed if the factory oring on the RMR doesn't seal completely on the slide as with MOST guns. Wide Glock slides (21-20 etc) don't need a seal plate.
My "tight fit" is so that the RMR doesn't shift on the slide therefor mantains zero under more "abuse" ( banging it, rolling around on the ground etc..) and has nothing to do with "sealing" the RMR from water.
Unlike · Reply · 10 · November 25 at 5:24pm · Edited
Jacob Sharp Douglas Holloway excellent info!
Like · Reply · November 25 at 5:55pm
John Wells I wish I had my crystal ball working. I can't wait to see the optics we have come out in then next two years.
I think we are living in great times when it comes to firearms and their accessories.
Lots of innovations are happing right in front of us. There is no doubt that the red dot on a pistol is a good thing. This has been happening for many years if not decades now. They get smaller and better with even better and more stable mounting solutions every year.
This is also no doubt that if you are running a red dot on a defensive handgun and don't have back up iron sights then your a fool!
The two complement each other and they should be viewed as such.
This all being said how many people have had a iron sights fall off??
If it's man made shit happens and breaks! Deal with it and have a plan for it!!!
Unlike · Reply · 4 · November 24 at 10:38pm · Edited
Shawn Hinck I've never had them fall off, but I have had the front sight on a glock come loose
Bill Blowers Acceptable to me because:
1. Old eyes
2. Night Vision
3. Reported rate of failure is not so high as to be unmanageable.
Unlike · Reply · 7 · November 24 at 11:27pm
Jacob Sharp Night vision capability is a massive +1 that really can't be matched by anything outside of a laser. Potentially a niche application, but a very important one nonetheless.
Like · Reply · November 24 at 11:30pm
Bill Blowers G34, no tape, 30K on it. G17, no tape, 10K on it. Work G17, no tape, 2K on it. My personal experience has been different than most.
Buck Thomas I think something that needs to be considered is the skill level of the person carrying it and the environment in which it is being carried. I use the same train of thought with regards to setting up AK's and other weapons. For me, if the person is a moderately trained up to a switched on shooter that will be using it in a team environment where there are other people likely to be engaging the same threat and are able to cover down when said optic fails...yeah I will recommend they get an RDS with a known track record for failures on their gun to take advantage of what they can provide. If a single moderately trained individual who WILL NOT be in a team based environment...I will not recommend using an optic with a high rate of failure. Extremely switched on guy by himself that will able to fight through an optic failure and still effectively place hits on target when the optic fails? You betcha...get you some RMR on that gun. For myself personally? Until they fix the optic and I don't have to wecsog it with beer cans and riggers tape or buy three $1500.00 slides to ensure I have a gun that works the RMR can lick me where I pee. I will Stick to the T-1 thank you.
Unlike · Reply · 9 · November 24 at 11:43pm
Jacob Sharp Good shit Buck Thomas.
And just for my essay, the only known issue with the T1 currently is the brightness adjustment knob spinning loose after high round counts, yes?
And bulk i guess, but that's not a mechanical fault.
Like · Reply · November 24 at 11:46pm
Buck Thomas it's the only one I'm aware of. I know a few guys have had optics go TU but I can't recall the details.
Unlike · Reply · 2 · November 24 at 11:47pm
Lee Gullett Paul Gardner is one of those T1 destroyers.
Unlike · Reply · 1 · November 25 at 8:51am
Scott Jedlinski I have gone through one H1. I bought used though. It was an older one with only a few of the battery contacts points as opposed to the new one with many contact points. The rheostat also seemed loose.
For reference it was on a G17 with an Unity mount. Aimpoint replaced it on the spot. One of the benefits of living in N. VA.
Of the 4 LED RMRs I have owned I had to send back 2. They were mounted on a M&P CORE. These were older ones (more than 2 years old manuf date). None have failed since they were returned. The other 2 were bought as refurb off of Amazon. These have not failed yet after 1.5 years of heavy use.
Of note, the ATEi G17 I have has never seen an issue with the RMR. Gun is going on 8 months of heavy use (8K ish rounds).
My point is I think Trijicon's new method of freezing the electronics and the gun mount/mill has a lot to do with RMR life and should be a point of observation.
Unlike · Reply · 3 · November 25 at 12:34pm · Edited
Thomas Victa Scott Jedlinski is right about the mounting. G's kill things. The better the mounting solution (aka no wiggle=no acceleration=longer life) the longer the life. It's really that simple. I've had a DP Pro go north of 35k. Is that not worthy of duty use? Considering you're changing your recoil spring and striker spring at least 2x in that time normally.
Unlike · Reply · 2 · November 25 at 3:51pm
Steve Fisher I'm making a switch to delta pros on a few guns this month
Like · Reply · 1 · November 25 at 7:04pm
Brock Elliott Steve Fisher As a test or a slow movement to all Deltas?
Like · Reply · November 25 at 7:24pm
Steve Fisher Test I have time on them. All ready. I'm going to try one or 2 mainstream
Like · Reply · 1 · November 25 at 7:36pm
Roland Deschaintull me too
Like · Reply · November 25 at 8:48pm
Cameron Benz Jacob as you requested.
One could compare longevity with the other electronic options. And it's not like anyone here is preaching that one should only have the RMR as I'm pretty sure most are running cowitnessed irons with them.
"
We discussed this last night in Network Support chat, and it resulted in a good conversation, so I figured it would garner even more debate in the public eye. There are a few questions below, but they all relate to different aspects of the same topic.
In regards to the RMR on handguns, given the failure rate post, as well as the anti flicker plate post, where electrical tape was mentioned as a fix, why is it okay to condone an item such as the RMR for duty use, when it couldbe argued that it is still developing technology?
If electrical tape was recommended as a fix on any other life saving device, would it still be acceptable?
Do the gains you receive from a dot outweigh the potential risk of failure, for whatever reason? Why is it an acceptable weak point on an otherwise reliable system?"
Responses were both varied and informative.
The TL;DR of the issue, is that while RMRs are not the optimal solution, currently, they are a means to an end, and by using them, and providing feedback to the manufacturers, we are helping the optics community move towards a MORE optimal solution, one which has all of the advantages with none of the potential drawbacks.
The dots are here to stay, but they are a tech that is still in development, and that must be kept in mind when advocating for their use.
"
Luke Gordon We accept it because the RMR is the best option right now.
Yes the overall gains are worth it. If the dot goes down the gun doesn't magically stop working. Use your backups, fill that window up with bad guy and shoot.
Like · Reply · 3 · November 24 at 3:17pm
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Jacob Sharp Gains in regard to speed, accuracy, or both?
Like · Reply · November 24 at 3:19pm
Luke Gordon Jacob Sharp certainly accuracy especially at distance. The fast drill being completed with a RMR shows the speed issues are not real.
Like · Reply · 1 · November 24 at 3:21pm
Jacob Sharp Would the dot going off not being an issue be relegated solely to RMRed guns with full sized cowitness sights?
I ask in comparison to some of the options like the Suarez or Balor that have a dash or short mounted sights, etc...
Like · Reply · November 24 at 3:26pm
Luke Gordon Jacob Sharp no idea I only have a Balor, which has pretty useless backups.
Unlike · Reply · 2 · November 24 at 3:37pm
Jacob Sharp Luke Gordon so in that situation, (and this isn't a dig at your setup, simply a conversation prompt), loss of the dot would render the long range benefits of the set up useless, considering the Balor integrated sights, (or any similar setup)?
Like · Reply · November 24 at 3:44pm
Luke Gordon correct, but I found if that window is mostly filled with target, you will hit it.
Unlike · Reply · 1 · November 24 at 3:56pm
Roland Deschaintull balors BUIS are FAR from worthless. I put mine on my gun, zero'd the RDS and then shot the Irons for shits and grins. I fired a 6ish inch group at 25 yards with the Balor BUIS. the group as about a foot low at 25.
Matthew A Jacques has pictures of ...See More
Unlike · Reply · 13 · November 24 at 4:09pm
Jacob Sharp Roland Deschaintull Roger. Good information.
Like · Reply · 1 · November 24 at 4:11pm
Luke Gordon Roland Deschaintull ill have to give them more work, thanks for the hope.
Like · Reply · 1 · November 24 at 4:16pm
Roland Deschaintull it's a lollypop guys. we all percieve it a little different. all you guys have to do to be successful is be CONSISTENT with how you are lining that dot up with the rear post and then memorize your Kentucky windage for your distances.
if you focus o...See More
Unlike · Reply · 7 · November 24 at 4:32pm
Luke Gordon good to know!"
"
Ashton Ray Some serious minded folks don't recommend them for serious use for just this reason.
It is an analysis that must be done by each individual.
If your eyes are bad, and the dot gives you a very large performance increase, the answer may not be the same as someone shooting a sub 5 sec FAST with good eyes on irons.
Unlike · Reply · 3 · November 24 at 3:47pm · Edited
Jacob Sharp So essentially this is an example of a potentially, (not always, but potentially), sub par option being recommended within a certain context?
Akin to Roland's use of the Eotech? (Aka for his context the issues were minimized because he was changing batteries before every mission, etc...)
Like · Reply · November 24 at 3:48pm
Ashton Ray Jacob Sharp that's how I see it. (No pun intended)
Unlike · Reply · 1 · November 24 at 3:50pm
Matt Prime Who are the serious minded folks?"
"
Brock Elliott This has been a reoccurring topic in my discussion with a few guys about investing in an RMR, the slide work, etc. If my irons work no shit, is the hassle, money, and time worth it should it break? That's the mental tug of war I've been playing. So far, hours of research, reading, video watching of Modcasts the conclusion is that it's worth it.
Unlike · Reply · 2 · November 24 at 3:47pm
Jacob Sharp Just briefly/generally speaking, what are your conclusions so far as to the main points in favor of the RMR over irons, given its potential for failure?
Like · Reply · 1 · November 24 at 3:49pm
Brock Elliott Couple points Jacob Sharp. You're continually receiving feedback from the dot while presenting the pistol. Improves and hones skill with the firearm fundamentals in general. Distance shooting improves specifically 25+yds. Plus they're f'n cool. But to be honest I don't have any experience with one so the items I'm naming are reasons I will be purchasing one. I guess I'm just regurgitating info Ive hears and soaked up from reading and listening to those w experience."
"Shawn Hinck Tape is a an acceptable fix because it's fixing the issue, pure and simple. Not every fix needs to be fancy. As for failure rates, it is a concern, but for me, the reward outweighs the risk. My acceptable sight picture is now putting the dot on the target, I'm no focusing on the front sight either. It's the best option out there, but we are seeing the electronics on the RMR improving constantly. But my personal thoughts are, 3 guns with RMRs, one for carry, one for training and one for comp. if any one of them go down, I have a back up. The chances of that RMR breaking it go way down if I'm not constantly shooting it for training.
Scott Wolf Jacob Sharp, you stated: "If electrical tape was recommended as a fix on any other life saving device, would it still be acceptable?"
I have a question about your statement. Is the issue because the “fix” is something as simple as tape? If thats the fix, and it works, is it any less valid than a convoluted or extraneous fix that renders the same results?
As for life saving devices. An FAA certified parachute rigger can sew a piece of similar parachute fabric on a hole of a parachute, clearly a life saving device, and it can remain airworthy. In a similar vein to the electrical tape fix, a FAA parachute rigger can also use a parachute sticky patch, which is much like tape, one side is sticky, that is made out of parachute material and apply it to a hole on a parachute and have it again remain airworthy and safe for someone to jump until a more permanent patch can be sewn on.
Ultimately, what is being recommended, is a “shim” of sorts, to increase the tension/tolerance to a higher level. Again, something that is done quite often on many things, some of which might even be considered life saving. An old adage comes to mind in this instance. “If its stupid and it works, it isn’t stupid”
So if we are to all agree on the benefits of an RMR and have identified corrective action to potential weak points, and taken steps to mitigate them , if and when they present themselves, that leaves us with a very old argument, that many don’t even consider an issue these days. That being the fact of it using a battery and “batteries fail”. All the old school farts used to go on and on about this when electronics first started making an appearance in the industry/profession and “that will get you killed”. It’s something that most probably don’t even remember and or don’t consider to be an issue today.
So ultimately, I think it boils down to what level of risk is an individual willing to take and what steps can he take to mitigate as many of those risks as possible to meet his comfort and confidence level with the item. This will vary from person to person, no doubt, but at the end of the day, it’s what each person will have to ask themselves.
Unlike · Reply · 8 · November 24 at 3:53pm
Jacob Sharp My question is, should we be condoning an object that is still in a phase that requires such a fix in the first place, considering it's a primary sighting system? Doesn't that go against our usual duty grade mantra?
We don't recommend Eotechs here for a reason, given the failure rates and other issues, wouldn't RMRs be in the same boat?
If not, why do we make an exception for them?
Like · Reply · 1 · November 24 at 3:58pm
Scott Wolf Jacob Sharp not to go down a rabbit hole and or change the subject, but how many years were we using Eotechs, and slaying dudes on the two way range with them? No need for anyone to reply, its a question meant more for people, like yourself who have the same question, to think about and apply to this topic. RMRs work and for some, they work really well and have a quantifiable benefit over iron/traditional sights. For some, and as I alluded to above, the benefits outweigh the risks that have been identified in their mind. So I don't think its so much as making an exception as it is individuals making their own educated choices.
Unlike · Reply · 1 · November 24 at 4:12pm
Jacob Sharp Scott Wolf absolutely concur. Various solutions have put bad guys in the dirt for years.
But truly optimal as per the P&S mantra?
Like · Reply · November 24 at 4:14pm
Scott Wolf Jacob Sharp not to change the subject or piss in anyones wheaties here, but perhaps this is an instance where common sense based on real world experiences and acceptance of risk(s) makes more sense than a self imposed mantra? Perhaps they should be gu...See More
Unlike · Reply · 2 · November 24 at 4:30pm · Edited
Jacob Sharp Scott Wolf same page.
Like · Reply · November 24 at 4:29pm"
Steve Fisher Who
Cares if it works I have used tape foil. Beer can shims. Etc.
Unlike · Reply · 12 · November 24 at 4:03pm
Bill Blowers Well let's see, I just took the head of a scout light to a belt grinder to relieve space to fit under MAWL better, I routinely modify pouches/gear to my liking with Shock cord, para cord, home sewing and so forth, I made my own jumper cable from MAWL to Scout, so forth and so on.
But I have not needed tape under any of my 3 so far. If I did, it wouldn't bother me at all
Unlike · Reply · 13 · November 24 at 4:06pm
Scott Jedlinski I just pull up the battery tabs a little. No shims. Just lucky I guess.
Unlike · Reply · 7 · November 24 at 4:12pm
Roland Deschaintull roll the dice. if your pistol jams within the first 5,000 rounds it is no different than an RMR flickering out.
if that had been an OIS at that exact bullet, your weapon would have failed you in a gunfight. why is that acceptable, but an RMR that dies is un acceptable.
You are betting your life that the shots needed at the moment of truth will not be the shots after your gun goes empty, after your weapon has a malfunction, or the RDS fails. I'll take that bet.
Unlike · Reply · 21 · November 24 at 4:26pm
Shane Fitch I see this argument about the same as the people who argue against optics on rifles. ANY electronic optic has a chance of failure no matter what the maker. Aimpoint, Trijicon, whomever. Be it battery compartment, battery or just simple electronics failure. The 'failure' rate is not consistent nor is it an absolute on the RMR, look at Bill for example.The gains far outweigh the cons. There is a reason for back up sights, same as on a rifle. Same as a red dot on a rifle, some people think its a majic fix for shitty shooting techniques, improper presentation, grip , etc. Then they get one installed and dont practice with it and they are like "optics on pistols suck" blah blah. It takes a dedicated effort to learn. Wether or not the gains are worth the individuals time and effort, is up to them to decide.
Mick Brown Hell Shane Fitch, as a quality systems specialist, I'm going to suggest any object made by man is prone to failure if some sort.
Reduced probability for some items maybe, but still a real possibility.
So iron sights can still fail/be knocked around/broken.
Like · Reply · 1 · November 25 at 1:08am
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Sierra Tango I'm guessing that's one of the reasons that Sig's shooter Max Michele is using a C-More on his RTS on his 320. They seem to hold up to his thousands of rounds.
Like · Reply · November 24 at 4:46pm
Scott Jedlinski That or they pay him a lot. Never seen a CMORE on a serious defensive pistol. Anybody else seen one on a carry gun?
Like · Reply · 7 · November 24 at 4:52pm
Roland Deschaintull nope
Like · Reply · 5 · November 24 at 4:56pm
Sierra Tango Scott Jedlinski don't believe he pays for them but he pulled off the Sig Romeos for the C-More.
Like · Reply · November 24 at 5:09pm
Scott Jedlinski Sierra Tango...he is sponsored and is paid by them. He did not pull off the Romeo. He had a stock 320 milled for the C-More.
Like · Reply · November 24 at 5:18pm
Sierra Tango Scott Jedlinski I know one of those slides was going to be mine LOL. He gets priority at the gunsmith
Like · Reply · November 24 at 6:01pm
Shannon Campbell LOL...
Earl Henderson I have no experience with the RMR. Just knowledge from reading articles and comments etc. I was a little surprised to say the least about the failure rates that were mentioned in the comments a while back. I think you hit the nail on on the head about whether or not it's acceptable to have Life saving equipment that requires electrical tape to make it work.
If I had the money to blow what I would do based off what I know right now is I would have a duty sight mounted on a duty gun and then have an extra same gun and sight as a training weapon that will take the abuse from training and practice.
Roland Deschaintull I NEVER goto the range without 2 slides. so my "EDC" is gonna be my primary trainer gun and Im gonna beat that shit up. If my optic dies I swap to an iron slide.
once i get to about 5K, i move the RMR to a hobby gun and rotate a new (or fresh refurb) onto the RS.
it's not a big deal. if you get the rds, you get it, the rest of you dudes that are not sold, you are fighting preconceptions and institutional inertia to try and make the call.
those of us that have drank the cool aid know the shortcommings of all of the platforms and are willing to put in the effort to keep them up and running.
if you are a 1911 guy and wont trust RDS, choke yourself.
Dudes will stay on time of parts replacement based upon round count, but you mention that about RDS and they lose their fucking minds.
Unlike · Reply · 34 · November 24 at 7:45pm · Edited
Hide 13 Replies
Steve Fisher Shut the fuck up with logic and shit let's go back to 9mm vs 45
Like · Reply · 26 · November 24 at 7:51pm
Brock Elliott This has been my mindset the past few months as I went from unconsciously incompetent to consciously incompetent and hopefully moving forward to consciously competent as I learn and research and actually use one. I was under the initial impression that...See More
Like · Reply · November 24 at 7:55pm
Mick Brown Fleet management's a thing?
Who woulda thunk it?
Like · Reply · 1 · November 25 at 1:10am
Roland Deschaintull rotated and balanced...... um I mean zero'd
Like · Reply · November 25 at 3:38pm
Thomas Victa Honestly I used to be against dots on pistols due to just that. But based on some extensive testing the newer MRD sights are really approaching no shit good life. The RMR is a great sight and offers a lot to the shooter once he/she puts in the reps. Th...See More
Like · Reply · 1 · November 25 at 3:44pm
Roland Deschaintull ^^^^ This dude know stuff and thangs. +1 That I have yet to see a Delta Point Pro shit the bed, but if you aint got a dot in your sight picture it's cause that fucker has like EO Tech battery life.
Like · Reply · 1 · November 25 at 4:04pm
Nino Granzotti Roland Deschaintull Does rotating the RMRs on one slide require cutting the slide for both, or is this a non-issue. Good info, thx.
Like · Reply · November 25 at 6:07pm
Roland Deschaintull i have had to file off material from the RMR housing if it was out of spec.
Like · Reply · 1 · November 25 at 6:09pm
Thomas Victa Roland Deschaintull we did kill one somewhere around 40-45k with a steady diet of 147 +p. The only thing worse on a gun is the RA9TA. I think we cooked about a dozen batteries along the way to the point of delaminating. The batteries fail well before the sights. So there is that problem, but that may be related to the way we shoot.
Like · Reply · 1 · November 25 at 6:23pm
Steve Fisher Thomas stop with logic
Next you will tell
Me...See More
Like · Reply · 3 · November 25 at 6:48pm
Aaron Cowan I double fed a 5.7 once.
Like · Reply · 3 · November 25 at 6:58pm
Thomas Victa Don't get me started on pistol malfunctions Steve...
Like · Reply · November 25 at 7:02pm
Steve Fisher Don't hate cause it all
Worked
Like · Reply · November 25 at 7:04pm
Jonathan Mahfouz This had been something I have been debating with my Glocks. I'd like to RMR both my 19 and 17, but that's A LOT of money. I guess it's going to be more research on my part. I also understand the problem with the tape solution, at leads in my mind. For a $700+ optic, I feel like 'put a piece of tape on it' isn't really an acceptable solution. Hopefully the manufactures will remedy the issue by the time I have the cash to pursue the upgrades.
Like · Reply · November 24 at 10:03pm
Shawn Hinck Manufactures can't control battery inconsistencies or people cutting slides or plates making them in such a way that cause issues. I'll also add, I'll take a piece of tape over the RMR being as tall as all of the other options out there
Like · Reply · 1 · November 24 at 10:07pm
Jonathan Mahfouz This is true. I was under the impression that it was more of a contact issue with the optic, than a battery issue. Like I said, it's just stuff mulling in my head for future projects, so I'll definitely be doing a lot more research before I make a decision. Which is why I'm on here haha.
Like · Reply · November 24 at 10:11pm
Scott Jedlinski So we are all ok with lubing our guns over and over again so they work correctly but put one piece of tape on the gun and we lose our minds.
I need to make a Joker meme in Off-topic.
Like · Reply · 12 · November 24 at 10:24pm · Edited
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Jacob Sharp Bad analogy.
Lubing/maintaining a gun is one thing, having an optic on a carry gun potentially require modifications in order to function as advertised is another entirely, at least in my mind.
I think we are putting too much focus on the tape part of my OP. The real heart of the issue, is do the benefits of the dot outweigh the potential failures, and furthermore if they do, how is that any different than a guy saying he prefers an Eo because he thinks the reticle is superior?
One item we recommend, the other we don't? I'm having a hard time understanding the why. If the benefits can be shown to outweigh the potential failures, than that's an answer I will accept, but I think blind endorsement of any product without acknowledging/mentioning its limitations is opposite of what we try to do here.
Does that make more sense? Maybe my initial post was poorly worded.
Like · Reply · November 24 at 10:37pm
Jacob Sharp Like for you I understand, because you have vision issues. For you the benefits outweigh the potential cons.
Is this the case for someone with 20/20 though?
Like · Reply · November 24 at 10:38pm
Shawn Hinck Because the eotech has a real issue that can't be fixed with a preventative measure.
Like · Reply · 1 · November 24 at 11:29pm
Jacob Sharp Shawn Hinck is this possibly and issue made less important due to the simple lack of other available options?
I feel like even with Eo, if there was a fix, you would still have people saying "why pay $500 for something that needs to be fixed out of the box when I could buy an aimpoint that works".
With the RMR, you either make it work, jump up in bulk to a t1 which still has its own potential issues, (albeit less disastrous ones), or downgrade to something even less reliable.
Do we make due simply because it's one of our few available options?
Like · Reply · November 24 at 11:33pm
Shawn Hinck And if there was something like the RMR that was as compact, durable and reliable we would be saying that, but at this point there isn't anything that matches. But the eotechs don't have a fix, and a small strip of tape is a small price to pay for the ...See More
Like · Reply · November 24 at 11:41pm
Scott Jedlinski Jacob Sharp And for the record your judgment of my analogy is, well, poor.
LOL. Just kidding.
Unlike · Reply · 1 · November 25 at 12:46pm · Edited
Douglas Holloway I take acception to your statement "function as advertised" as we all know or should that the RMR was NEVER designed to ride a slide of a handgun.
Like · Reply · 2 · November 25 at 4:56pm
Jacob Sharp Douglas Holloway but that still doesn't make the analogy any more true.
Lubrication is not a developed modification required to make the gun function. It's a necessary task. ...See More
Like · Reply · November 25 at 5:01pm
Jacob Sharp Furthermore I understand that the RMR is being pushed outside of its performance window, but that doesn't make the analogy any more accurate.
Like · Reply · November 25 at 5:02pm
Douglas Holloway I never said anything about the analogy. I'm sorry if that was unclear but I even directly quoted what I was commenting on. *shrugs*
Like · Reply · November 25 at 5:05pm
Shawn Hinck This is more akin to taking a mag light and expecting it to attach to an ar handguard. The RMR is not made to ride a slide, yet that's what it's being used for. Adaptions were made and it has done a pretty good job adapting to it
Unlike · Reply · 1 · November 25 at 5:07pm
Jacob Sharp The context of the comment that you quoted is crucial.
*shrugs*
Like · Reply · November 25 at 5:07pm
Jacob Sharp Shawn Hinck concur
Like · Reply · November 25 at 5:08pm
Scott Jedlinski Jacob Sharp...I think the tape/mod has more to do with the milling/mount than the RMR itself. Doug's guns do not need tape or a sealing plate because of the tight fit.
As far as the analogy, lubrication of the gun is necessary depending on level of use and the environment. A modification such as tape is similar because it may or may not be needed depending on the gun ie the RMRs environment. COREs need it but ATEi guns do not.
Furthermore, my point is that lubing a gun consistently takes more time and effort than putting one piece of tape on once. I believe this is where we say the proverbial molehill is made into a mountain.
Unlike · Reply · 1 · November 25 at 5:09pm · Edited
Douglas Holloway Incorrect, The "tape mod" helps* to keep the battery from moving around too much which will slow the galvonic corrosion which will STILL happen over time.
If you bend the side tab a bit it will work better then tape.
Tape is a bandaid along with the new fancy "bump" seal plate that some guy made without knowing the "why's" behind things that happen. But I'm sure he'll sell a bunch anyway. *rolleyes*.
As far as the regular seal plate....it is always needed if the factory oring on the RMR doesn't seal completely on the slide as with MOST guns. Wide Glock slides (21-20 etc) don't need a seal plate.
My "tight fit" is so that the RMR doesn't shift on the slide therefor mantains zero under more "abuse" ( banging it, rolling around on the ground etc..) and has nothing to do with "sealing" the RMR from water.
Unlike · Reply · 10 · November 25 at 5:24pm · Edited
Jacob Sharp Douglas Holloway excellent info!
Like · Reply · November 25 at 5:55pm
John Wells I wish I had my crystal ball working. I can't wait to see the optics we have come out in then next two years.
I think we are living in great times when it comes to firearms and their accessories.
Lots of innovations are happing right in front of us. There is no doubt that the red dot on a pistol is a good thing. This has been happening for many years if not decades now. They get smaller and better with even better and more stable mounting solutions every year.
This is also no doubt that if you are running a red dot on a defensive handgun and don't have back up iron sights then your a fool!
The two complement each other and they should be viewed as such.
This all being said how many people have had a iron sights fall off??
If it's man made shit happens and breaks! Deal with it and have a plan for it!!!
Unlike · Reply · 4 · November 24 at 10:38pm · Edited
Shawn Hinck I've never had them fall off, but I have had the front sight on a glock come loose
Bill Blowers Acceptable to me because:
1. Old eyes
2. Night Vision
3. Reported rate of failure is not so high as to be unmanageable.
Unlike · Reply · 7 · November 24 at 11:27pm
Jacob Sharp Night vision capability is a massive +1 that really can't be matched by anything outside of a laser. Potentially a niche application, but a very important one nonetheless.
Like · Reply · November 24 at 11:30pm
Bill Blowers G34, no tape, 30K on it. G17, no tape, 10K on it. Work G17, no tape, 2K on it. My personal experience has been different than most.
Buck Thomas I think something that needs to be considered is the skill level of the person carrying it and the environment in which it is being carried. I use the same train of thought with regards to setting up AK's and other weapons. For me, if the person is a moderately trained up to a switched on shooter that will be using it in a team environment where there are other people likely to be engaging the same threat and are able to cover down when said optic fails...yeah I will recommend they get an RDS with a known track record for failures on their gun to take advantage of what they can provide. If a single moderately trained individual who WILL NOT be in a team based environment...I will not recommend using an optic with a high rate of failure. Extremely switched on guy by himself that will able to fight through an optic failure and still effectively place hits on target when the optic fails? You betcha...get you some RMR on that gun. For myself personally? Until they fix the optic and I don't have to wecsog it with beer cans and riggers tape or buy three $1500.00 slides to ensure I have a gun that works the RMR can lick me where I pee. I will Stick to the T-1 thank you.
Unlike · Reply · 9 · November 24 at 11:43pm
Jacob Sharp Good shit Buck Thomas.
And just for my essay, the only known issue with the T1 currently is the brightness adjustment knob spinning loose after high round counts, yes?
And bulk i guess, but that's not a mechanical fault.
Like · Reply · November 24 at 11:46pm
Buck Thomas it's the only one I'm aware of. I know a few guys have had optics go TU but I can't recall the details.
Unlike · Reply · 2 · November 24 at 11:47pm
Lee Gullett Paul Gardner is one of those T1 destroyers.
Unlike · Reply · 1 · November 25 at 8:51am
Scott Jedlinski I have gone through one H1. I bought used though. It was an older one with only a few of the battery contacts points as opposed to the new one with many contact points. The rheostat also seemed loose.
For reference it was on a G17 with an Unity mount. Aimpoint replaced it on the spot. One of the benefits of living in N. VA.
Of the 4 LED RMRs I have owned I had to send back 2. They were mounted on a M&P CORE. These were older ones (more than 2 years old manuf date). None have failed since they were returned. The other 2 were bought as refurb off of Amazon. These have not failed yet after 1.5 years of heavy use.
Of note, the ATEi G17 I have has never seen an issue with the RMR. Gun is going on 8 months of heavy use (8K ish rounds).
My point is I think Trijicon's new method of freezing the electronics and the gun mount/mill has a lot to do with RMR life and should be a point of observation.
Unlike · Reply · 3 · November 25 at 12:34pm · Edited
Thomas Victa Scott Jedlinski is right about the mounting. G's kill things. The better the mounting solution (aka no wiggle=no acceleration=longer life) the longer the life. It's really that simple. I've had a DP Pro go north of 35k. Is that not worthy of duty use? Considering you're changing your recoil spring and striker spring at least 2x in that time normally.
Unlike · Reply · 2 · November 25 at 3:51pm
Steve Fisher I'm making a switch to delta pros on a few guns this month
Like · Reply · 1 · November 25 at 7:04pm
Brock Elliott Steve Fisher As a test or a slow movement to all Deltas?
Like · Reply · November 25 at 7:24pm
Steve Fisher Test I have time on them. All ready. I'm going to try one or 2 mainstream
Like · Reply · 1 · November 25 at 7:36pm
Roland Deschaintull me too
Like · Reply · November 25 at 8:48pm
Cameron Benz Jacob as you requested.
One could compare longevity with the other electronic options. And it's not like anyone here is preaching that one should only have the RMR as I'm pretty sure most are running cowitnessed irons with them.
