RMA Defense

tgimian

Moderator
Moderator
@Brendog1776 is there a particular reason you are so aggressively going after Matt (or anyone else on the forum for that matter)? I understand wanting info, but you are taking to clingy ex levels of "PAY ATTENTION TO ME."
 

Stanislao

Member
Having read all of this I've come out more confused about armor, and distrustful of anyone selling it.

Not an expert here, just someone trying to build a functional understanding.
 

tgimian

Moderator
Moderator
Having read all of this I've come out more confused about armor, and distrustful of anyone selling it.

Not an expert here, just someone trying to build a functional understanding.
That's one of the biggest issues with the armor industry (from the perspective of someone who knows just enough to know they don't know nearly enough).
 
Having read all of this I've come out more confused about armor, and distrustful of anyone selling it.

Not an expert here, just someone trying to build a functional understanding.

Let me know if this helps.

Here is a screenshot showing the calibers and velocities:
1636703246906.png
1636703318751.png
Link to PDF:https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/223054.pdf

In a nutshell, this what each level is rated to hit from the NIJ. There is more it than just shooting, as such as drop tests and immersing in water, making sure the clay they use is at the required temperature. The NIJ doesn't have their own lab, instead it is contracted out to labs. Such these three:

1636701757286.png

These labs don't certify armor, just merely conducting the tests. It is the NIJ Administrators who certify armor. You can view those armors that are compliant (meaing compliant with NIJ standards and Follow up inspection) here: https://cjtec.org/compliance-testing-program/compliant-product-lists/

Here is the list for the Follow up inspection: https://cjtec.org/nij-advisory-or-safety-notices/

The NIJ does a follow up inspection, where they will go to the manufacturer, and test plates. Not having them submitted. To make sure they are still within the standard. This is why I don't recommend HESCO armor. They have among the highest number of failed follow up inspections.

If a company says a plate is certified by the NIJ, you can verify by going to that site and check. If they say it is tested, that just means they tested it to the standards. So in that case you are putting more faith in the manufacturer.

Nest is the companies own use of levels of protection. It varies from company to company, from high quality armor companies to Ar500 (please do not use ar500 plates). Most common is you see III+ (you will see III++ with some), that is supposed to mean it tested to or certified to III (read their description) and speacial threat tested to whatever the NIJ did not test at that level. It is important to read their description and see what they say. There is no + in the NIJ ratings. That + symbol is dubious on its meaning and is from on the manufacturer, not the NIJ. Even if the armor is certified to Level III, it is only tested (currently) with M80 ball at 6 hits, 2 inches apart.

I hope that helps, if not let me know and I can go further if you would like.

The reason I have been asking matt for a link, is that if someone makes a claim, they should back it up. If not, why should I believe that individual?
 

tgimian

Moderator
Moderator
The reason I have been asking matt for a link, is that if someone makes a claim, they should back it up. If not, why should I believe that individual?
I get that, but Matt has been looking for a write-up that addressed this and it is looking like FB ate a bunch of posts in the P&S facebook groups (not just the one he was looking for, all in all about 20). He is looking for an alternate link, while managing the forums, FB groups, and working his actual job. So dial it back a bit, let people look for the shit they were referencing, and quit acting like he claimed that JFK was coming back to save America.
 
I get that, but Matt has been looking for a write-up that addressed this and it is looking like FB ate a bunch of posts in the P&S facebook groups (not just the one he was looking for, all in all about 20). He is looking for an alternate link, while managing the forums, FB groups, and working his actual job. So dial it back a bit, let people look for the shit they were referencing, and quit acting like he claimed that JFK was coming back to save America.
Dial back asking him to provide a link from a month ago? Maybe you should let him respond instead of making up excuses. It seems to me you are the one with the clingy ex thing going on here.
 

shorta07

Newbie
So new guy with some questions here:

1)As I understand it, the NIJ standard has not been adopted formally yet because NIJ has been looking at aligning with other standards. (DoD, EU, etc.) This meant a potential revision of the number of calibers that a plate would have to stop as well as potential changes to the shot patterns. With that being said, how can we say that "the standard is known" until it is formally published? What benefits are to testing to the .07 draft when your test report specifies the following:

"This test report may not be used to claim product certification, approval, or endorsement by NVLAP, NIST, NIJ or any agency of the Federal Government. This report contains data that are not covered by the NVLAP accreditation. This test was performed in accordance with the specification requirements listed in addition to any customer testing modifications or requests. The test results properly reflect the ballistic performance of the listed sample. This test report shall not be reproduced except in full without written approval of National Technical Systems."

Unless that is legal boilerplate on the part of the test center, it sounds like your test results do not back the claim of '.07 tested.' Am I reading that wrong?

2) For the level III+ question: The current information I am seeing from the NIJ shows IIIA and III, no IIIA+ or III+. I looked in the 0101.06 to try and find it: no mention there either. The only place I saw it mentioned in my searches: were on the websites of armor companies. As a consumer, I can see how that would be confusing when there is no mention of it in the source documentation to know what it has been ballistically tested to stop. If the + is referring to a special threat, I don't see that mentioned in your sales pitch Matt referenced apart from this:

"After all, the new standard for III+ plates is the ability to defeat the m855, xm193, 7.62×39 MSC and the .308 M80 NATO round, which this plate does with flying colors."

Where is this "new standard" coming from that you mention?

My point is this: if we are a body armor manufacturer trying to differentiate ourselves from the major competetitors in our industry (e.g. Avon ceradyne, TenCate, Point Blank, Hesco) and we see they are saying things that add to the confusion, why are we going to do the same thing? And why do you claim it is on the NIJ, when you are the salesman selling a product? If you know there is a problem with the designation, why even bring it up in your sales pitch?

Thanks for your time.

To answer 1. The standard is a rough draft. One would assume since the rough draft is posted publicly it is known. Could it change, yes, but these changes are unlikely from what I have been told by NIJ board members.

The disclaimer is put on there by the accredited lab as a disclaimer. This goes on all reports that are not officially certified/compliant.

2. III+ is not a standard. Companies selling to consumers still use this as an indication that it will defeat more than level III rounds, but less than IV. We were not the first ones to come up with this standard, but because it is used widely, we adopted it. We explicitly say what the plate has been tested to. There will be a transition from the current levels to the new rating system.
 

tgimian

Moderator
Moderator
Dial back asking him to provide a link from a month ago? Maybe you should let him respond instead of making up excuses. It seems to me you are the one with the clingy ex thing going on here.
I'm sorry that a forum mod is attempting to moderate things. Like I said, there is a reason he hasnt posted the link your requested. In the mean time you've come off as a condescending douche for no apparent reason other than you seem to have an issue with Matt.

By dial it back I was attempting to give you time to develope some patience in light of the info I posted for you. If that is outside of your abilities, let me know and I can assist you.
 
I'm sorry that a forum mod is attempting to moderate things. Like I said, there is a reason he hasnt posted the link your requested. In the mean time you've come off as a condescending douche for no apparent reason other than you seem to have an issue with Matt.

By dial it back I was attempting to give you time to develope some patience in light of the info I posted for you. If that is outside of your abilities, let me know and I can assist you.
I appreciate the apology, there was no need for your name calling from earlier and now. All I had done was ask for a link to said source, if replying back and discussing the subject on armor and certifications is being a douche in your eyes, maybe being on a forum and a moderator isn't for you. If it is ok with you, I would like to get back to the subject at hand and wait for matts link, that is supposdley well documented, but may have been deleted.
 
What attitude is that matt? I wasn't the one throwing insults and names around. That was one of your moderators.

I had asked and so has RMA, to back up with what you stated. So in your opinion, it is an attitude to question someones claim? Or to respond back to a post?

People "remembering" a discussion isn't the same as providing a link to said well documented item.

Would you be fine if I stated an issue about one of the forums sponsors, with nothing to back it up? Just a "enough people remember the issue"?
 
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