Relevance of pistol caliber carbines

#21
If the goal is to get good hits as fast as possible while keeping good ballistic performance I'd venture the answer is no. To address your questions:

1. Sure a lung shot when they are hands on isn't ideal.
2. No a hole isn't a hole. If that was the case FMJ from a .380 pistol would be the same as a 300 winmag. Expansion and using the energy of the round to push a fully expanded projectile to proper penetration matter.
3. One and two aren't true.

Also, have you compared your splits on a timer between accurate fire with a 5.56/300blk carbine and accurate fire with a 9mm or .45acp carbine at close range? I bet they won't be that different. Now stretch that to distance and I bet the rifle calibers really shine. You keep more velocity and less mental math for bullet drop. So you are giving up a big advantage for little or no gain.

If you are using Reston's story as an example for picking a weapon you might as well argue that having a bayonet is a big plus. If Jared could have shoved 12" of steel into the bad guy's eye socket it might have ended sooner....
Can someone get surefire to make an M600 with a bayonet attachment? Shit'd be pretty cash :D
I wasnt necessarily using his story to chose a weapon, I was using the lessons from his story to pose a question.

I truly appreciate all the input guys. I hope that my ignorance can, at the very least, make for some interesting discussion.
 
#22
What the guy said above, a PCC is great for fun and competition. I have a AR stylish 9mm setup for USPSA and Steel Challenge and it works great for that. It's also handy for shooting steel targets up close. As to the recoil I personally don't think it is that much less than a 5.56 to make a difference for most people. Also, most of those little PCCs weight about what some ARs do so I don't see that as a real benefit either. I really think a shotgun or 5.56 carbine would be a better option. It is 2018 after all. For someone with recoil and weight issues, who doesn't want to use a .22lr, maybe something like the FN PS90 would be worth looking at. I don't know anything about the PS90 other than what I have read so take it for what it's worth. I haven't heard too great of things about terminal performance from the 5.7x28 round (mainly just pokes holes).
Agreed, and in my experience the pistol caliber carbines often have just as much or more recoil than a well tuned 5.56 AR, and weight of the gun is similar as well. Bolt weight in the blowback actions most PCCs use contributes a lot to recoil and weight of the gun, while a gas operated system like the 5.56 AR doesn't have that disadvantage. Obviously they're all pretty low recoil, but comparing one vs the other I don't see any performance advantage of a PCC for the purposes of this discussion. Well, maybe one - a suppressed 9mm carbine can be pretty quiet.
 
#23
Agreed, and in my experience the pistol caliber carbines often have just as much or more recoil than a well tuned 5.56 AR, and weight of the gun is similar as well. Bolt weight in the blowback actions most PCCs use contributes a lot to recoil and weight of the gun, while a gas operated system like the 5.56 AR doesn't have that disadvantage. Obviously they're all pretty low recoil, but comparing one vs the other I don't see any performance advantage of a PCC for the purposes of this discussion. Well, maybe one - a suppressed 9mm carbine can be pretty quiet.
Forgive my ignorance, but aside from just familiarity, why are people making 9mm ARs?

The whole system isn't well set up for blowback, and seems more expensive to produce then just a tube gun with a AR style bolt release and mag catch that can take AR stocks and glock mags.
 

DocGKR

Dr.Ballistics
Moderator
#24
Seriously?

Since when did the recoil, weight, and size of a 5.56 mm carbine become significant issues?

We had a lot of experience with what where effectively PCC's back in the day of mil SOF and LE SWAT endemically using MP5's and Colt SMG's during CQB--there is a reason these pistol caliber weapons no longer dominate such endeavors.

Well designed 5.56 mm projectiles launched at the correct velocity they were engineered for are more terminally more effective in defensive encounters than nearly all service caliber handgun and PDW loads, with the bonus that the 5.56 mm loads are typically less likely to over-penetrate.
 
#25
What DocGKR said seems spot on. PCCs are really just gamer guns at this point. BTW there is nothing wrong with gamer guns, just don't try to make them into something they aren't!
 
#26
Seriously?

Since when did the recoil, weight, and size of a 5.56 mm carbine become significant issues?

We had a lot of experience with what where effectively PCC's back in the day of mil SOF and LE SWAT endemically using MP5's and Colt SMG's during CQB--there is a reason these pistol caliber weapons no longer dominate such endeavors.

Well designed 5.56 mm projectiles launched at the correct velocity they were engineered for are more terminally more effective in defensive encounters than nearly all service caliber handgun and PDW loads, with the bonus that the 5.56 mm loads are typically less likely to over-penetrate.
Since when did the recoil of 9mm become an issue? Doesnt stop people from putting comps on them.
But, as has been concluded, the ballistic benefits far outweigh the recoil benefits of stepping down to a pistol cartridge.

I'd also taken into consideration the fact that the MK18 and similar variants had essentially killed submachineguns. However, I'd rather hear from you folks than chalk a question up to "well military and LE uses it, so it must be the right thing to do"


Again, I really appreciate the input from everyone.
 

Matt Landfair

Matt Six Actual
Administrator
#28
I like to see things for myself on occasion. I know of some PDs that use or threatened to use PCCs.

I'm mapping out some future content.

Yes, that is mine. It is a project that had been on the back burner for a while. Optimal? No. Viable? Yes.
IMG_20180415_171605_049.jpg
 
#29
I like to see things for myself on occasion. I know of some PDs that use or threatened to use PCCs.

I'm mapping out some future content.

Yes, that is mine. It is a project that had been on the back burner for a while. Optimal? No. Viable? Yes.
View attachment 2237
Looking forward to hearing your thoughts. As I mention above I picked up a 9mm PCC for Steel Challenge and USPSA. Mine is a 16 inch Wilson Combat with mounted red dot (currently a Vortex Sparc AR). On targets that are typically 35 yards and under these things are a hoot to run, especially when banging steel. The best aspect of the current crop of PCCs is that so many accept Glock 9mm mags. The big thing that I haven't seen anyone mention is just how dirty these things get. 5.56 ARs are mostly wipe down and oil with me whereas the 9mm requires some serious cleaning every 300 or so rounds.