Red Dot Performance Ceiling?

ptrlcop

Established
I found this article interesting as the author claims that there is a performance ceiling that exists that does not with iron sights due to the ability to track the sights in recoil... http://pistol-training.com/archives/9309. What say this group?

A never-ending topic of discussion these days is the pistol mounted MRDS (mini red dot sight) that is becoming more popular among shooters. As with so many things, it’s yet another “All or Nothing,” with too many people believing they’re best or worst under all circumstances for all shooters. And as usual, that’s just stupidly wrong.

For those not familiar with the MRDS, it is an optical sight that has no magnification and produces a red dot (usually battery powered) as an aiming point on the lens. The optic is mounted to the pistol’s slide and moves just as the slide does during recoil.

There are some undeniable benefits to an MRDS. The biggest is that it allows a shooter to focus on the target yet still see an aiming reference. There is no need to choose between the front sight and the target. You look at the target and the red dot is just there. For the majority of pistol owners who aren’t going to achieve the level of skill & discipline to choose the front sight under extreme stress, it essentially combines target-focused shooting with aimed shooting.

The MRDS also benefits shooters whose eyesight no longer allows them to get a clear sight picture with iron sights, particularly those who are far-sighted. Any sight is better than no sight.

There are some undeniable disadvantages to an MRDS, also. And the biggest of those is that the sight has a fairly narrow “viewable angle.” When the gun fires, the dot disappears as the slide cycles and rises in recoil. It comes back into view once the slide is back in battery and is relatively level along the eye/target line of sight.

This is a video I was quickly able to find on YouTube that demonstrates the “disappearing dot” quite well. You can skip to the 8m 30s mark to see exactly the problem.

Advocates of the MRDS often try to compare it to a rifle red dot scope, but that’s invalid. A rifle’s recoil arc is substantially less because the rifle has four (thanks SLG!) points of solid contact rather than being controlled solely by the arms. Similarly, comparisons to IPSC Open-style guns are wrong because (a) the red dots on Open guns aren’t moving back and forth on a reciprocating slide and (b) the Open guns have compensators which keep the muzzle level during recoil.

For beginning and intermediate-level shooters the “disappearing dot” is no problem because they normally lose track of iron sights in recoil, too. But for more experienced shooters who understand proper sight tracking — keeping visual control over the gun through the entire arc of recoil — the MRDS actually slows them down. Instead of following the aiming point as it comes down from recoil as they’d do with an iron front sight, they must wait until the gun is level enough to make the red dot visible. Only then can they adjust their aim as necessary and press the next shot.

We all agree that blinking every time you fire the gun is bad. But somehow MRDS proponents don’t mind that their sight blinks in and out of sight with every shot. Curious.

The dot also disappears as things other than recoil make the gun move around. The best example of this is, not surprisingly, movement. While it’s easy to keep the gun very level when moving in straight lines (forward, back, left, right) at a controlled speed, it’s a lot more complicated when you’re moving in more realistic and dynamic ways. The drill where I’ve seen students get really frustrated with the MRDS is the Figure-8 Drill:

When the dot isn’t visible, you have to wait on it before you can shoot. With an iron sight, the front sight is always right there where it’s supposed to be. With the MRDS, the dot is only visible when the gun is relatively level.

The other major issues with MRDS are their visibility under certain weather conditions and their durability. These are problems which are both likely to be addressed as the technology advances.

For the vast majority of shooters, the MRDS is an advantage. It allows them to aim precisely when they’d otherwise get too rough (or no) sight picture for the needed shot. If I were outfitting a large police department or military unit with pistols, I’d want to put MRDS on those guns. It simplifies teaching and delivers acceptable performance with less time & effort expended.

But the MRDS, because it appears and disappears as the gun moves in recoil, has a lower performance ceiling than iron sights. In other words, your maximum potential speed with the MRDS is less than your maximum potential speed with an iron sight. That’s why pistol shooters tend to eschew the MRDS as they get more skilled, at least for close to moderate range shooting where speed is as much a factor as accuracy. (at longer distances, even the best pistol shooters tend to find that they can extend their bullseye range using the more precise, smaller aiming point from the MRDS compared to an iron front sight)

Of course, many fans of the MRDS don’t want to be told that their improved performance is due to a lack of shooting skill. I’ve even had one proponent claim that sight tracking was impossible and made-up! Seriously. They don’t want to hear that they’re not yet in the top five percent. Because as I’ve said before, 95% of shooters believe they’re in the top 5%.

If the MRDS lets you do what you want to do better than an iron sight, than the MRDS is good for you. That doesn’t mean it’s the best choice for everyone under every circumstance. And the reverse is also true. Just because you might have the skill level to eek a little more performance out of iron sights than an MRDS doesn’t mean that everyone is being held back the same way. Find what works best for you and don’t fall into the trap of assuming it’s the best for everyone else.

Train hard & stay safe! ToddG
 

AresGear_Jake

Stiffer Is Better
Vendor
Just so I'm tracking, you're saying that SLIDE-MOUNTED red dots on pistols have a performance ceiling, correct?

Sorry, not you, the author. At any rate, all of his points seem to be directed towards slide-mounted optics, with no thought towards frame-mounted options like Geissele's 6-sec mount.

- Jake
 
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ptrlcop

Established
Jake, I think you are correct about that. I have an opinion, but I wanted to hear from the group first.
 

Matt Landfair

Matt Six Actual
Staff member
Administrator
I was told that article was a blow by blow discussion of what we had on the FB page.

Unfortunately that specific discussion lead to Todd leaving the group. It is unfortunate, I appreciate his input and the different angle he sees.
 

Presscheck Consulting

Gunslinger
Staff member
Moderator
WARLORD
Covered already ad nauseum. Intermediate shooters my ass. I don't discount that dot loss can be a mind fuck, but I qualified the triple nickel with a slide mounted RDS. Three consecutive runs in under 5 seconds.

So explain to me where the loss of speed is again? If you can out run your red dot, I'm pretty sure that you are out running your headlights too. In the real world IPSC'S are all different sizes and ages with different demeanors and two hands each that hold the key to your decision making. The rhythm of your shot cadence in a fight is totally different than in a course of fire on the flat range where you only have to process brown or white.

The last time soldiers had that easy of a desicion was the invasion of Iraq....get it? Lol



My world ain't everyone's world, I will take pistol shots in excess of 25 meters, I will shoot my handgun under NVG'S, I will take pertentage shots against threats while myself, the threat and the no-shoot are all in a state of motion.

The use of red dots has been so great that I wouldn't even think of going back, the only problem with red dots are the red dots themselves. Industry is working on it.
 

Bill Blowers

Sausage Six Actual
VIP
I have been to three of Todd's classes and the first time he told me about sight tracking Ithought he was full of shit. Until I started doing it just before lunch on day two of the first class.

Unless my mind is filling in the blanks for me, I am seeing the dot during recoil. If I do my part with my grip, I just see it during the whole process, I live in the .20-.25 split range, so I'm not pulling as fast as I can.

I crush motherfuckers with MRDS, both precision and speed. I'm kinda surprised at his article, since I know he can get his blaze on and can absolutely see his irons. I think if he actually put time on MRDS, he would see it is vastly superior.
 

ptrlcop

Established
Bill I am in your world split wise and I know what you are talking about. When I shoot with the RDS the dot just looks like the little ball that bounces across the words in a kids sing-a-long video. Then the ball lands where I want it I break the shot.

Shooting a bill drill on an 8inch circle from 7yds I don't ever see the dot leave the scoring zone.

I would start to think I'm not skilled enough to see the ceiling that Todd talks about but I have a few 4.9 FASTs under my belt and live in the mid to upper 5s on that drill...
 

Bill Blowers

Sausage Six Actual
VIP
And my review of range notebook records shows that I can draw and hit a 6" circle at 7 yards in an average time of 1.34 seconds. This is from a 6354DO. That is the average, but if I'm working that component of handgun, I can get down below 1.20 pretty quickly and make hits. It is not the RMR that is limiting, it is my own hand speed. I am sloth like.

In addition, my gun has irons. So when needed (Figure 8 drill) or others, I switch back to irons for a moment in time and the dot is there. As to weather, I have been in some sweet Pacific NW rain storms and looked down at a puddle in the lens. On the draw, most of the water runs out, I can still see the dot to make a hit, and while slide mounted MRDS beat up the optic, it also expels most of the remaining water during recoil of the first shot. So I'm back to getting down as normal. I have yet to see an issue with rain. Havent dealt with snow or mud, I would bet snow is coming right off, mud might require a thumb.
 

Bill Blowers

Sausage Six Actual
VIP
Update on my thoughts from the FB page below


I have carried one "on duty" for almost two years. BUT, my daily duty is as the training sergeant for my agency, so it has not lived in a patrol car. I do use it for SWAT, in 2014 that equates to 72 missions and 500 training hours. I also use it for my personal courses. It has about 20K rounds on it. Rather than re-hash stuff, some thoughts are here; https://primaryandsecondary.com/forum/index.php?threads/red-dot-performance-ceiling.744/#post-5390

In addition to that I will add this. I have an RM06 on my G34 and it is the one I'm talking about above. I think for the SWAT assignment it is best since I set it to be ready for 630 lumens coming on instantly with the TLR/HL. My RM01 will catch up but there is a persceptible pause that I dont like. That is specific to an early hit in darkness.

I have not had any issues with the RM06, it is a S/N above 108,XXX. My team does a diagnostic shoot with rifle and pistol at the start of each range day. Each guy shoots it, we collect the data and publish it. In this fashion I can see where I sit compared to everyone else instead of just saying we all Pass the qual course. Content of the diagnostic changes every 6 months and we break down each part of it so guys know what we are testing and what they can glean from it to work on.

We have some hard shooting MF'ers, we shoot a lot, we are not restricted to a certain # of bullets per month. So we shoot a full ten hour day every month at a minimum. Most guys are doing more because they are competitive hard dicks and nobody wants to be last. So with a 36 man pool to compare, I am running the pistol diagnostic 20% faster than the next closest guy. Now there are about 5-6 guys that would likely swap back and forth with the best times prior to me getting the RMR, me being one of them. The 20% is off one six month run, and I cleaned them up EVERY month.

The juice is worth the squeeze in both speed and precision. Are they robust enough for patrol use? I dont plan to switch back when I return to the street, if it gets broke then I will replace it with a spare while I wait for it to be fixed.

I just finished a run and as is always the case, I think about stuff that I wish I would have said. Last week we did three days on the range, big focus on pistol since it accounts for a larger disparity than rifles.

I was using the RM01 and the dot started blinking between shots. First time I thought where's the dot? Then I just finished with irons. I didnt want to step off the line to change batteries (The usual culprit for blinking) so I just kept going. It turned into an awesome BUIS drill since there were times I couldn't see the dot. Great day of training and I still kicked ass.

The diagnostic I talk about is accuracy as fast as you can. So misses add time, time is the score. Guys aren't supposed to practice the drill during the six months, they should shoot it six times total. They can absolutely practice portions, first shot from the draw, reload, target to target transition or whatever. We are hoping, and should see a reduction in time over the six months as they clean up their skills.
 

Bill Blowers

Sausage Six Actual
VIP
Water test, filled it under a faucet, this is what I experience in rain storms. Slight "starbursts" off a center clear dot. Fire the first shot and almost all water is expelled from recoil. I did this several times under the faucet, sample of one. I have a video but it won't let me upload it?
 
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