Questions on Modcast 222: Non Standard Defensive Weapons

JLL2013

Regular Member
#1
How does this mesh with Modcast 125 Terminal Ballistics?
We have a panel lauding .45-70, 12gauge, and full power rifle cartridges. We have a panel essentially implying only a 12gauge slug can have good effects on personnel in a vehicle. This comes across as very incongruent. Moreover, this essentially ignores the benefits of 5.56 as discussed in Modcast 125, namely that the vast majority of loads stay in a human chest cavity and reduces the chances of over penetration. Why are we recommending shooting someone across a hotel room with a .30-30?


 

user12358

Regular Member
#2
Also the comment about just hitting someone upper chest with a .30-30 and you won't need round 2? Is there some research on this that I am unaware of because usually the information on modcasts is well vetted but there were a considerable amount of questionable statements made by one of the panel members in just the first hour.
 

Steven Cali

Regular Member
Quantified Performance
#3
I recommend listening to the terminal ballistics modcast again. They don't really disagree. Where Dr. Roberts touches on full power rifles and 12 gauge, he says basically the same thing. It also seems that you missed some of the qualifiers in the statements from the panel. For instance, the comment about .30-30 was that with a good high thoracic hit with a .30-30, you will almost never need a second shot. They said the 12 gauge with slugs is the best tool for shooting through a vehicle, not that everything else was completely ineffective.
They aren't arguing that you should replace your AR with a Marlin 336, or a Remington model 8, or a Beretta A400, they are talking about what those guns are still good for, and why you might want to consider one for certain tasks.
 

user12358

Regular Member
#4
For instance, the comment about .30-30 was that with a good high thoracic hit with a .30-30, you will almost never need a second shot.
He said upper chest or head, not high thoracic hit. Saying the upper chest and head is far different than saying putting a round through the Aortic arch. There has been a lot of .308 usage during the GWOT and a lot of people shooting x39 back. If you think putting a .30 caliber round into someone is a magical instant fight stopper and you won't need that second round, you are going to be in for a bad time when you realize what everyone else has realized.

There is a difference between what Chuck was saying about how a rusty peasant AK with a cracked stock being more effective than a $2000 1911 and people just putting out bad info about .30-30s being guaranteed man stoppers.
 

Steven Cali

Regular Member
Quantified Performance
#5
He said upper chest or head, not high thoracic hit. Saying the upper chest and head is far different than saying putting a round through the Aortic arch. There has been a lot of .308 usage during the GWOT and a lot of people shooting x39 back. If you think putting a .30 caliber round into someone is a magical instant fight stopper and you won't need that second round, you are going to be in for a bad time when you realize what everyone else has realized.

There is a difference between what Chuck was saying about how a rusty peasant AK with a cracked stock being more effective than a $2000 1911 and people just putting out bad info about .30-30s being guaranteed man stoppers.
I was paraphrasing his statement, which is why there are no quotation marks around it, and arguing about the difference between high thoracic and upper chest is kinda ridiculous. The words might be different, but they mean the same thing.
Equating M80 ball and whatever 7.62x39 ammo is getting fired back, to quality .30-30 hunting ammo is like comparing 158 grain .38 special lead round nose to 9mm 124 grain HST. Just because the bullets are the same diameter does not mean that data gathered from one is in any way indicative of the performance of the other.
In any case, neither I nor Darryl said that it was a magical instant fight stopper. Just that it is very likely to end the fight with a single round, just like it ends the vast majority of the massive number of soft skinned game animals of similar size that are taken with it every year. That data is far more relevant than GWOT 7.62 shootings.
 

JLL2013

Regular Member
#6
I recommend listening to the terminal ballistics modcast again. They don't really disagree. Where Dr. Roberts touches on full power rifles and 12 gauge, he says basically the same thing. It also seems that you missed some of the qualifiers in the statements from the panel. For instance, the comment about .30-30 was that with a good high thoracic hit with a .30-30, you will almost never need a second shot. They said the 12 gauge with slugs is the best tool for shooting through a vehicle, not that everything else was completely ineffective.
They aren't arguing that you should replace your AR with a Marlin 336, or a Remington model 8, or a Beretta A400, they are talking about what those guns are still good for, and why you might want to consider one for certain tasks.
I'm not saying those rounds don't kill people. I'm saying hunting cartridges/rifle cartridges/anything not an intermediate cartridge (IE .45-70, .30-06, 7mm Mag) have a proclivity to exit the human chest cavity which is not something we want when shooting across a hotel room.

Again, I'd challenge the assertion that a 12gauge slug is the "best" tool for shooting through a vehicle. The insinuations throughout the modcast were that 5.56 was ineffective against people in vehicles. I've shot cars with 5.56. It isn't ineffective.
 

Steven Cali

Regular Member
Quantified Performance
#7
I'm not saying those rounds don't kill people. I'm saying hunting cartridges/rifle cartridges/anything not an intermediate cartridge (IE .45-70, .30-06, 7mm Mag) have a proclivity to exit the human chest cavity which is not something we want when shooting across a hotel room.

Again, I'd challenge the assertion that a 12gauge slug is the "best" tool for shooting through a vehicle. The insinuations throughout the modcast were that 5.56 was ineffective against people in vehicles. I've shot cars with 5.56. It isn't ineffective.
I see where you are coming from on the over penetration concerns, and obviously we do need to be concerned about that when we select our loads, which is harder when you are dealing with full power rifles, but not impossible, if you are careful. I would argue that .30-30 is an intermediate cartridge, and is no more likely to over penetrate than a comparable load in 7.62x39, .300 blackout, or any other .30 caliber intermediate cartridge.
As far as slugs and vehicles, 12 gauge is better at dealing with intermediate barriers than 5.56, and will suffer less than any intermediate rifle bullet from impacting the barrier in question. Not that 5.56 can't do an adequate job against a barrier, but 12 gauge will do it better.
 

nyeti

Moderator
Moderator
#8
I need to quit doing these things....
The reason I am recommending a 30/30 for a hotel is in places where it is illegal to have an AR or anything “assault weapon” looking, or you are traveling through those places. This was about staying legal, not fricking optimal. 12 ga Brenneke versus cars over any 5.56 or pistol round...All Day Every Day for me in a domestic environment. So....I ll just creep around the country in full Fudd mode and be looked at like a moron and the geniuses can see how you’re pistol braced little AR does in San Francisco. I did the GWOT in SoCal and my last visitor to my home prior to vacating California was a pair of BATF task force officers trying to zap a retired cop based on their supervisor having a hunch. So coloring inside the lines is a big deal for this Fudd.
To show my level of incompetence, note my 10 yards, 6 rounds in under 6 seconds with a dead stock wheel gun right down to factory S&W wood grips. I’d rather be good with a gun I can have without issue in every single city and jurisdiction in this country than my normal 9mm service pistol that I can’t legally have in many places.
 

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Matt Landfair

Matt Six Actual
Staff member
Administrator
#9
How does this mesh with Modcast 125 Terminal Ballistics?
We have a panel lauding .45-70, 12gauge, and full power rifle cartridges. We have a panel essentially implying only a 12gauge slug can have good effects on personnel in a vehicle. This comes across as very incongruent. Moreover, this essentially ignores the benefits of 5.56 as discussed in Modcast 125, namely that the vast majority of loads stay in a human chest cavity and reduces the chances of over penetration. Why are we recommending shooting someone across a hotel room with a .30-30?

What was the scope and purpose of this specific episode?
 

nyeti

Moderator
Moderator
#10
Also, anyone who has trained with me or followed any of my stuff knows what I consider high chest and head “hits”. It’s the size of a large orange in both and anything hit outside that will likely require more and we treat it as a miss....just a miss contained in the body if it is in meat but not in that fist size area.
170 gr. 30/30 hunting load in a hotel room....through an upper torso. I m feeling okay with my recommendation for a TRAVEL GUN FOR USE IN OR TRANSITIONING PLACES WHERE A SEMI AUTO MAGAZINE FED PLATFORM IS LIKELY ILLEGAL OR “FROWNED UPON”.
 

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JLL2013

Regular Member
#11
What was the scope and purpose of this specific episode?
Matt, I listened to the entire podcast and understand the scope and purpose. Terse responses often come across as rude or patronizing and don't help. One could call them a drive by post.
And no one is calling anyone a fudd either.

Let's just have an intelligent conversation and clarify our points/expand the learning instead maybe?

So load selection makes a significant difference with over over penetration concerns for a .30-30. Got it.

Are there any conventional rifle loads that address someone's valid concerns? For example, one lives in a ban state but is very proficient with his 100% legal and socially acceptable M1 Garand. What load alleviates some of that person's concerns about that round going through the front door and across the street in his SoCal neighborhood?
 

nyeti

Moderator
Moderator
#12
Matt, I listened to the entire podcast and understand the scope and purpose. Terse responses often come across as rude or patronizing and don't help. One could call them a drive by post.
And no one is calling anyone a fudd either.

Let's just have an intelligent conversation and clarify our points/expand the learning instead maybe?

So load selection makes a significant difference with over over penetration concerns for a .30-30. Got it.

Are there any conventional rifle loads that address someone's valid concerns? For example, one lives in a ban state but is very proficient with his 100% legal and socially acceptable M1 Garand. What load alleviates some of that person's concerns about that round going through the front door and across the street in his SoCal neighborhood?
I am being labeled a Fudd elsewhere because of this Modcast....okay, I m actually good with it.
M1 Garand....for the concerns over the recommendations of a 30/30 Lever gun with over penetration I don’t get this. The beauty of the Lever gun is it screams Fudd, which is the point. They are small light and handy, almost ideal for deer size game (like people), have plenty of choices in solid, well proven types of ammunition that is designed for deer size animals and that Ammo is readily available and plentiful everywhere. As Lee pointed out for typical defensive use their are no height over boreline issues when using iron sights and very little with a red dot or scout type optic. So you have a handy, super PC gun that works well in confined environments due to size and weight and is very efficient on the wound ballistic side.
If you don’t love the M1 Garand and 30-06 as an American, you are wrong. I love the things and love 30-06. One of my PC travel guns is a Brockman Pre 64 30-06. It is a much better outdoors and anti four legged round. Again, look what type of animals the ammunition we would be using is designed to put down and compare that size and weight to humans. Also, the size of the guns tends to be an issue. The M1 Garand is a fabulous rifle that no one with any level of experience has ever defined as “handy”, and is not size efficient for rapid deployment from vehicles or inside indoor confines. So, if confined to California, it is a great choice for a legal rifle very capable of doing rifle things. Is it what I want to travel and move around with hauling into hotels and through airports...no. Getting back to public perception and LE perception post shooting event, the nice thing about the Garand is it fits well here. Like the classic 1911 I mentioned in the Podcast. It is very easy to pull the “I have this because it’s like what my great grandpa carried in WW2. The 2nd grade school teacher “Peer” in your jury won’t be immediately offended and may actually like you.
 

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#13
So, there a some good points and concerns brought up in this modcast.
Educating people on options available in their environment always has value as long as it’s clear why it’s a better option.
If someone understands the context and gets the fact that a legal length lever action regardless of caliber is an alternative to an illegal weapon in their environment then that’s good.
However if you fall into the trap of thinking the gun is what justifies the shoot you’re in fantasy land ( Im not saying any of you do so relax) A “bad” gun doesn’t make a good shoot bad. And a perfectly legal lever action .357 doesn’t make a bad shoot good or any more palatable.
The civil side is the hard part. I’ll argue the mere fact you’re toting around a rifle for “self defense” puts a bad taste in many peoples mouth. They will ask who the hell do you think is after you? And it’s no where near deer season so what gives with the scoped bolt gun there buddy. (Again not meant for anyone thin skinned just an observation)

I’ll never argue against the revolver as a still relevant and very valid self defense tool that everyone should own.

As to ballistics. I don’t claim to be an expert but I’ve seen a lot of violence and can’t recall any rounds passing through the chest of a person exiting a room and killing or even injuring anyone else. People in very close contact yes I’ve seen shoot through injuries.

@nyeti I get your frustration. I liked your clarification whether it was needed or not.
 

Matt Landfair

Matt Six Actual
Staff member
Administrator
#14
How many people are concerned for their well being right now? How many are concerned about a collapse? How many don't have what we deem optimal defensive weapons?

The moral of the episode is train and become proficient with what you have if you arent buying something better or cant have something better. All the comments saying fudd this and fudd that fail to recognize people who aren't them. They only considered this from their own narrow frame of reference and not those who might have these as their only options.
 

nyeti

Moderator
Moderator
#15
Chriscanbreach, the issue is not always “legal” versus good shoot/bad shoot, etc. We have a “legal” system that has little to do with justice. It is not about beating the charge for many of us. By the time you get to court, pile up solid expert witnesses, case law documentation, etc. you can very likely prevail on pure legal correctness. The problem is that I don’t even want to take the ride. The road to that courtroom is paved in massive outlays of every bit of wealth and funds you have (or likely don’t), and time in custody that is not fun for amateurs at being in custody. The system is painfully un-balanced towards “figuring it out later” and passing the decision buck down the road to someone else’s problem. BY FAR the easiest route for LE is arrest now and let someone else figure it out. Again, ask most squared away working street cops of the type you spend time in training classes with or on the range who work in Metropolitan cities how they think a vast majority of their department decision makers would view a non LEO in a self defense shooting with an “Assault Rifle”, even if totally legal in that area. Those are the folks making the early decisions on how the system will treat you. Additionally, decide how much work your attorney’s will be doing convince a jury full of 2nd grade teachers and those who ALWAYS get selected for jury service from the pool that your pistol braced AR is totally normal and should not be any sort of factor. This is the stuff that when you spent a couple decades as a street guy 100% in patrol division, no office jobs, and a regular in court (which included being the largest county in the United States District Attorney’s office recognized expert on Assault Weapons) my opinion my have a small sprinkling of relevance on how the system and courts view this stuff....even if it is not what the law and the Constitution actually say.
 

JLL2013

Regular Member
#17
How many people are concerned for their well being right now? How many are concerned about a collapse? How many don't have what we deem optimal defensive weapons?

The moral of the episode is train and become proficient with what you have if you arent buying something better or cant have something better. All the comments saying fudd this and fudd that fail to recognize people who aren't them. They only considered this from their own narrow frame of reference and not those who might have these as their only options.
Dude, I know more about you than you know about me. I've listened to a lot of Modcasts.
And all of that leads me to genuinely think you're a good guy who's out to do the right thing and not be a jerk.
But I don't get why the people who are calling the panel fudds and have a "narrow frame of reference" keep getting brought up this thread. They aren't here. I intentionally posted this thread in the forum, not on Facebook and not in the comments on YouTube. So why not just add some additional information/clarification to the discussion? Feel free to PM or give me a call, I'm not here to fight.

Talking bolt guns (which are probably not in an intermediate caliber), .45-70, etc to people who are in politically hostile areas probably warrants a cartridge discussion that takes into account the largely urban/suburban nature of those states.
Frankly stating "yeah, a bolt gun in 7mm magnum or .308 is probably not ideal if you live in an apartment in Massachusetts, maybe look at a lever gun in .357 or .38 special or a bolt gun in .223" would be decent to add to this discussion. Its my opinion that something along those lines would probably have added to the discussion.
 

nyeti

Moderator
Moderator
#18
I think everyone on that Modcast was nodding in approval when discussing the CZ Bolt Guns in calibers we normally associate with our preferred military/ LE service calibers. Things like that are very solid options and we also were consistent on the Scout type rifles that are also usually in 7.62x51 or 5.56. I ve had a Clifton Scout Rifle since 1986/87ish. I carried it around a lot during much of the first assault weapons ban period.
 

nyeti

Moderator
Moderator
#19
I was finally able to read some commentary elsewhere on this and while I am sort of just going to adopt the Fudd labeling as being a good thing, I did note some people are discounting the whole “California” thing and how it’s just one State. Well, of the 4 most populated states in the US, half of the the population of this four states are subjected to draconian gun laws. The larger cities of the other two are in alignment with California and NY and it is a matter of time before they start down the road. In one fell swoop, Virginia.....VIRGINIA...came within a couple votes of getting what took decades to attain for the anti gunners in California. That California and NY money is coming to anywhere they think they can flip. This is not a defeatist attitude, it is a reality, and is currently a reality for at least a third of Americans who live in those places.
I am blessed. I left California and have homes in Texas and on an island in Arizona. I am bunkered up with more than sufficient means to force an attack on my home or family to elsewhere (I am sure the houses that had the Beto signs in front were noted by more people than me as marked safe for looting). Modern, performance firearms and optics are my first line in the current situation. With that said.....if I was trapped behind enemy lines right now, a lot of what we were discussing on the podcast is applicable. If I was traveling and was caught by a domestic travel ban, I would rather be stuck with a good shotgun, or rifle of a sporting design than nothing or something that put me in legal jeopardy. If right this second I was quarantined in some hotel in a ban state and in an area plagued with laws that basically allow for stealing of property as a right....having our pair of “bird hunting guns” (Beretta A400 Xtreme Plus’s) with “deer hunting buckshot and slugs” would pu my wife and I in a better situation than having nothing. Knowing how to run those guns as well as my AUG’s/AR’s and AK’s is also a positive. If that is stupid thinking, I ll own it.
 

Matt Landfair

Matt Six Actual
Staff member
Administrator
#20
Dude, I know more about you than you know about me. I've listened to a lot of Modcasts.
And all of that leads me to genuinely think you're a good guy who's out to do the right thing and not be a jerk.
But I don't get why the people who are calling the panel fudds and have a "narrow frame of reference" keep getting brought up this thread. They aren't here. I intentionally posted this thread in the forum, not on Facebook and not in the comments on YouTube. So why not just add some additional information/clarification to the discussion? Feel free to PM or give me a call, I'm not here to fight.

Talking bolt guns (which are probably not in an intermediate caliber), .45-70, etc to people who are in politically hostile areas probably warrants a cartridge discussion that takes into account the largely urban/suburban nature of those states.
Frankly stating "yeah, a bolt gun in 7mm magnum or .308 is probably not ideal if you live in an apartment in Massachusetts, maybe look at a lever gun in .357 or .38 special or a bolt gun in .223" would be decent to add to this discussion. Its my opinion that something along those lines would probably have added to the discussion.
Look at the YouTube comments.