Rick Yates
May 19 at 3:14pm · Sanger, TX
Talking to a gentleman over the weekend who is an instructor for Viking Tactics and spent many years in Special Operations (someone who's opinion I trust) he was very adamant about not using polymer magazines, only USGI. Are there any guys in here that agree with that and if so what led you to taking that stance?
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- Kenneth Joseph, John D Remf, Nicholas Ault and 12 others like this.
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Barry PetersonWhat were his reasons?
May 19 at 3:15pm · Like -
Rick YatesThere was a large group of us shooting and I didn't get the opportunity to get all his reasons. He just mentioned it a couple of times while we were running drills
May 19 at 3:17pm · Like -
Peter MercerH&K Mags are the only way to go!
May 19 at 3:19pm · Like · 2 -
Timothy GiblinSOI (USMC school of infantry) was the reason the USMC banned them claiming they rip out at the mag release after so many iterations.... yeah but up to that point they work every time no matter what. They are disposable.
Catch a gi mag between your plate and a rock going prone and you might get a mag thats good for 2 rounds and you have no idea its coming.
Pmags you can plan/replace and not have issues, gi mags are a gamble.
I believe this is less of an issue with the m3s. But don't have enough reptitions to say so definitively.
May 19 at 3:21pm · Like · 9 -
Matt LandfairWhat does an HK mag do better than a Pmag?
May 19 at 3:21pm · Like · 9 -
Timothy GiblinCost a lot, weigh more but have more stable feed lips (which are better than a m2 for long term loaded storage in a bunker)
May 19 at 3:22pm · Like · 3 -
Clayton Wallingactually the main reason the USMC banned them was their incompatibility with the IAR at the time and the m27's reliance on standard capacity magazines as opposed to drum/belt's.
May 19 at 3:22pm · Like · 8 -
Tim NelsonJam up. ^
May 19 at 3:23pm · Like · 1 -
Timothy GiblinWould this be the first time a 1sgt lied to me? Nope.
May 19 at 3:23pm · Unlike · 8 -
Tim NelsonI had a couple Hk mags fail me at a qual range. Glad I didn't pay for them.
May 19 at 3:25pm · Unlike · 3 -
Michael HueserI made a fortune offloading my HK mags...
May 19 at 3:25pm · Unlike · 18 -
Henry J FontanillsWeren't HK mags made specifically for the British abortion of a rifle. Pat Rogers I think may have told me that. But I might be completely wrong.
May 19 at 3:27pm · Like · 2 -
Anthony AllenMatt, HKs allow for a little more OAL if you reload.
May 19 at 3:28pm · Unlike · 1 -
David WellerI think everybody has a "thing" about mags. Me, for instance, only use USGI mags with Magpul followers (and Ranger bottom plates, if I have some around). I also use metal mags for my AK. I've just had too many feed issues with polymer mags, personally. Not saying they're bad, just my preference is metal mags.
May 19 at 3:28pm · Like -
Barry PetersonSo what about the sort of hybrid mags like the Lancer AWM? Polymer mag, steel feed lips seems like a good combination.
May 19 at 3:28pm · Like · 2 -
Matt LandfairDuane
May 19 at 3:30pm · Like · 2 -
Griz MacGillieMagazine Cartridge NSN 1005015205992 that for each requisition received for replenishments, there is a 'CA' fatal reject processed by the Item Manager. The message reads:
FIELD PROBLEMS WERE IDENTIFIED WITH THE STEEL MAGAZINE(1005-01-520-5992). NO STEEL MAGAZINES WILL BE AVAILABLE UNTIL CORRECTIVE ACTION IS IMPLEMENTED & TESTED TO ASSURE PROPER OPERATION.
REQUIREMENTS FOR 30 ROUND MAG CAN BE FILLED WITH THE ALUMINUM MAGAZINE NSN 1005-00-921-5004.
May 19 at 3:30pm · Unlike · 2 -
Mate StandardI know Defoor isn't a fan of polymer mags, stating that they are less reliable. He also showed us how to clear a brass over bolt malfunction with a GI mag, stating that it isn't possible to do that with a polymer mag.
May 19 at 3:31pm · Like · 2 -
Matt LandfairI'm Pmag only. No issues with live or Sims after thousands of rounds of each.
May 19 at 3:32pm · Like · 5 -
Barry Peterson"Less reliable" is open to some interpretation, of course.
May 19 at 3:32pm · Like · 1 -
Sean FranciscoPersonally....I have no real "mechanical or operational" preference either way. The reason why I say that, is that I have eleventygazbillion rounds through both platforms. I give MagPul an edge, only because of the "rounded edges"...i.e.
The only thing that moves me one way or the other to a MagPul is the ease of rapid unloading, and not getting cut up on sharp edges. Yeah I know....that is a minor thing, but why get bit if you don't have to?
Functionally...in my years and years (yes, I am OLD now) of experience...a quality mag is quality mag, and as long as they have rounds in 'em I will run 'em and not care if they are steel or poly.
I have found mags I fogot I owned that were stored in a box for well over 10 years, fully loaded, and they ran like champs, so I am not worried about that.
A buddy shot some VietNam era 20-rounders that had been stuck loaded in his dad's old foot locker since the early 70's....same story. They ran.
Garbage in, garbage out. MagPul....good Steel MilSpec.
May 19 at 3:33pm · Like · 2 -
Matt LandfairMate- we have some data to prove that wrong with pmags failing before usgi
May 19 at 3:34pm · Edited · Like · 2 -
Joe GarzaLancer mags
May 19 at 3:34pm · Like · 2 -
Matt LandfairI remember failures with Lancers.
May 19 at 3:35pm · Like · 5 -
Peter MercerI have gotten longer lasting products from H&K, running in the 416 or an RRA they just seem to be better and way more versatile with the doubling pins. I am not knocking Mag-Pul or Hex-Mag, I dig their products too but when I loadout I always grab H&K first.
May 19 at 3:36pm · Like · 2 -
Mate StandardMatt Landfair I'm just passing on what another big name instructor has stated. I personally use a mix of both, just depends on what's cheaper. I haven't had an issue with either style.
May 19 at 3:38pm · Like · 2 -
Chris CliftonI believe Kyle's issue with PMags traces back to when the tan mags were cracking at the rear of the feed lips
May 19 at 3:39pm · Like · 8 -
Roddy McCaskill Jr.The biggest issue I've encountered with gi mags is bending the feed lips when they hit the concrete during a reload.
May 19 at 3:39pm · Like · 1 -
Duane LiptakFeeding problems with polymer mags? PMAGs? Unstable feed lips? Holy cow, guys...The GEN M3 PMAG is the most reliable magazine, period, although new condition USGI mags can come close in some firearm/ammunition combinations. There's third party data to that effect, hopefully someday it will be publicly available, but ask around. Run them in dust or after some knocking around, and we start to run away with it. The HK mags were a train wreck. All polymer mags are not the same, by a long shot. PMAG feed lips do not creep over time, even in heat cycling situations. We have gen 1 PMAGs, which are way less sophisticated that the GEN M3s, still loaded since 2007 that still measure within spec, without using the dust covers. USMC banned because of IAR incompatibility with the GEN M2 or MREV mags that are now the MOE mags, and won't readdress anytime soon (althought the M3 works in IAR flawlessly) for the 30rd solution because of the M855A1 vs SOST fight which is more important to them. Of course there were some uninformed gunners wishing for a return to the M14 that spread a bunch of nonsense rumors about melting during firing, etc. which is so laughably impossible that it would be funny if people didn't believe the BS.
May 19 at 3:58pm · Edited · Unlike · 14 -
Jimfrared PhilapyThink I remember KD4 also mentioning he likes the added bonus of using USGI as an impact weapon at times.
May 19 at 3:42pm · Like -
Chris CliftonMost people have issues with USGI mags due to them trying to use the 7 mags that were 100 mph taped together the supply clerk issued them when they inprocessed at their units
May 19 at 3:43pm · Unlike · 9 -
Tore HaugliI have seen very few functional issues with the HK mags - it is standard issue for the HK416N. The main negatives of that mag, in my opinion, are cost and weight.
As for bending feedlips, is that as prominent with empty mags as it is with partials? I have never dropped mags on real hard surfaces that much - our ranges were either gravel or soft ground.
I am just not sure that the mag was designed to be dropped with rounds still in.
May 19 at 3:46pm · Unlike · 1 -
Mat BakerThere are two generations of Lancers, the first gen had some issues, I am a big fan of the 2nd gen that has metal from the feed lips down past the mag catch.
May 19 at 3:49pm · Like · 2 -
Griz MacGillieI do not have anything I can use to prove this, but the issues encountered with the HK mags had to do with the mag springs, a denial of it being a problem, and a suggestion that mags are expendable, buy more mags, and then a reluctant addressing of the problem that led to double feeds. Like I said, I have no document, message traffic or anything else of that sort that I can post.......
May 19 at 3:50pm · Unlike · 3 -
Chris HillI had to hide my use of Pmags in the corps and I deployed roughly 3 years before the IAR. I was under the assumption that they were banned before that. The biggest reason gear gets banned in the corps is because marcor syscom is full of guys who learned to fight ten years ago and like what they like and with age often comes inflexibility. Also if you are an o-6 about to get out and the company making a certain piece of gear you just hooked up a fat contract with wants to give you a job now....
May 19 at 3:51pm · Like · 3 -
Duane LiptakBottom line, if you like USGI, and you are careful about watching for dents or deformed feed lips, and don't try to hang on to a magazine in service like it's your daughter's virginity, you'll likely be fine. If you run PMAGs, especially GEN M3 magazines, and if you finally do crack one, you retire it, you'll be fine. We have pics of GEN 1 PMAGs from school houses with over 50,000 rounds through the mag, though. No hurry, as it will still work fine as long as it will hold rounds. Some people have preferences and that's fine. You will find that some units use USGI mags simply because they work when new, and they are free, so you can pitch them at will.
May 19 at 3:52pm · Unlike · 10 -
Jimfrared PhilapyBaby your mags. Someone wise once told me that.
May 19 at 3:55pm · Like -
Matt Stutzenburg*average Joe here*
I'm horribly biased in favor of PMAGs, have been for a long time.
Worked too many range details loading magazines that I didn't shoot, seeing mags get dumped out of boxes on a table and realizing that the only magazines in that box that DIDN'T need TLC before being loaded and sent out were the PMAGs.
That's what sold it for me, I got tired of trying to bend out feed lips and inspect magazines for bends, and the PMAGS were just the little engine that frackin' could, all day every day.
I'm not saying that mint condition USGI with better followers aren't good, but if you want to know which is better, go take an unloaded PMAG and an Unloaded USGI and pitch them at the nearest wall with all you have.
Now load it and go shoot.
Question will be answered...
Edit: largely already said, I typed that far too slowly.
May 19 at 4:01pm · Edited · Like · 2 -
Matt WicksOne thing that I have noticed is that when a PMAG is broke you can almost always tell just by looking at it because there will be a crack or chunks of plastic missing. Not the case with GI mags which can look good but cause problems because you didn't see some slightly bent feed lips.
May 19 at 3:59pm · Unlike · 9 -
Matt WicksI'm sure we've all experienced that headache in the past. SOP on a range I shot at on the west coast was to smash a questionable mag at the first sign of problems, otherwise someone might not be able to see exactly why the mag was fucked up and put it back into circulation after coming off the range.
May 19 at 4:01pm · Like · 2 -
Frank WoodsTell your friend MOE stands for Magpul Over Everything.
May 19 at 4:01pm · Like · 2 -
Tore HaugliRetarded restrictions on use is a global phenomenon.
The program manager for all small arms in the Norwegian mil banned all other mags, other than HK steel mags, from use with the HK416 in 2010. The reason was the higher cyclic rate of the gun leading to failures to feed with other mags.
I tried a couple of Emags for a while,and they would feed fine.
As far as mags go, I tend to be quite non-compromising. If it gives me issues in training, I will mark it or note the number, and I will run a few drills with it to see if I can replicate it. If I can replicate the issue, the mag is shit-canned.
Learned that the hard way with flimsy G3 mags - they dented easily, and it was a pain to replace them (until we just stepped on them and rendered them useless).
May 19 at 4:04pm · Like · 3 -
Shane FitchWas the Instructor talking Pmags or the crap Thermold/Orlite? I have both PMAGS and GI, along with a couple of Lancer/Tangodown. My Pmags have been used and abused, as LE and MIL both and still holding up, even the Gen 1s I have. I know everyone has a preference, maybe he was just stating his. There are so many advantages to PMAGs as Duane and Matt noted above, no reason not to.
May 19 at 4:05pm · Unlike · 6 -
Duane LiptakThe old FDE mags did sour some guys. It's harder to maintain the processing window on them, especially for cold performance, and really hard to QC them, so for no eplainable reason, sometimes you'd see a few weak ones. Stick with the new M2/MOE mags, black preferably, Or the GEN M3 in black or ESPECIALLY in the Sand material, which is crazy strong, for professional use, and you will not have a bad experience.
May 19 at 4:07pm · Edited · Like · 10 -
Chris CliftonI didn't even realize VTAC was still doing classes. Seems like you don't hear anything about them any more here in NC
May 19 at 4:07pm · Like · 3 -
Rick YatesI don't know if they are Chris. This gentleman lives here in Texas
May 19 at 4:08pm · Like -
Duane Liptakhttps://primaryandsecondary.com/forum/index.php...
Forum
Professional discussion of weapons, equipment, and training.
PRIMARYANDSECONDARY.COM
May 19 at 4:08pm · Unlike · 4 · Remove Preview -
John D RemfOther than Mags which were well past their expiration date, the only problems I have encountered were the feed lips on several Gen2 pmags. I dead lined six of them last year with cracked feed lips at the rear of the feed lip. They were all less than 9 months old and not nearly as many rounds through them as a bunch of you guys. Right now I use GI mags of an aluminum or steel flavor, specifically Okay and FN. I do still have a few Gen 3 Pmags that get rotated in and have yet to see any problems with them.
May 19 at 4:08pm · Like -
Chris HillDuane what makes the colors different? Genuinely want to know. not being an asshole
May 19 at 4:08pm · Like · 2 -
Matt Landfairhttps://www.youtube.com/playlist...
PMAG GEN M3/USGI Test Videos
A series of videos depicting "unscientific" tests comparing the PMAG GEN M3 and Aluminum USGI...
YOUTUBE.COM
May 19 at 4:10pm · Like · 4 · Remove Preview -
Matt Landfair^^^ a series of tests instead.
May 19 at 4:10pm · Like -
Chris Clifton^ drop the mag and walk away
May 19 at 4:12pm · Like · 2 -
Duane LiptakEach color formulation has to be tweaked in processing and formulation, and without getting too deeply into IP, some of the colors are harder to maintain consistency on. We still lot test to be as sure as possible, and there are FDE, ODG, etc. that have gone for years and years, and thousands upon thousands of rounds, but if there's a bad mag report, it's usually a color, though what we're talking about here is a handful of issues over so many magazines produced in a year that it is pretty staggering.
May 19 at 4:17pm · Like · 5 -
John D RemfWith that info in mind, all of my failures were OD mags.
May 19 at 4:18pm · Like · 1 -
Dan KempI have some of all three around- fortunately my ten or so HK mags were free in a BIAP trade deal. Of the bunch, I generally prefer my PMAGS.
Now I would love to see the bolt over base clearing trick- that needs to get passed around. I spend too much time running M4 ranges not to want to know it.
May 19 at 4:20pm · Like · 2 -
Shane FitchDan, I'm wondering if he was talking about using the mag to push the bolt back as you are pushing the charging handle forward to free the casing from the bolt/charging handle? I was taught that at one time for bolt overrides.
May 19 at 4:24pm · Edited · Unlike · 3 -
Duane LiptakReality is, metal mags bend when they drop 5-6 feet on the lips. Pretty much anything with metal lips. You may or may not have a double feed extravaganza pending, but you'd have to look close to catch it. There are polymer mags that don't break when dropped from great heights...rubbermaid strong. Problem is, that doesn't allow for best feeding reliability, especially with grit, magazine monopod pressure, etc., and that's not cool. They also tend to be a bit crumply if you drop them IN the gun. We build mags to run 100%. Like 6,000 rounds through a single mag, destroy a gun with ZERO mag related stoppages kind of 100%. We also build them to pass TOP3-2-045 rough handling tests, which are a series of drops in the gun and out of the gun from 5 feet, as low as -60 and as high as +180, and with the Sand mags...they come pretty close to being brick durable, but we want them to run perfectly and survive as much abuse as we can...which, turns out to be quite bit.
May 19 at 4:24pm · Unlike · 10 -
Matt LandfairYou are just using a corner of the mag to pull the bolt back and keeping the charging handle forward - that's all.
May 19 at 4:25pm · Like · 7 -
Matt LandfairThat ability isn't worth using a lesser quality mag.
May 19 at 4:25pm · Like · 3 -
Chris HillThanks Duane the fact that you can elaborate on that and are willing to to my lowly self is why I hang a bunch of magpul shit on my gun and was willing to get NJPd and forfeit my SGLI to use PMAGS.
May 19 at 4:25pm · Unlike · 3 -
Duane LiptakIf you have man fingers, you can reach in and grab the edge of the carrier. Also...you will probably not see that stoppage with a PMAG in the first place. smile emoticon
May 19 at 4:26pm · Unlike · 8 -
Aaron CowanI think a lot of people tend to forget that magazines are perishable items...
May 19 at 4:27pm · Unlike · 17 -
Chris Hilli just use my MUT to grab the bcg and rip it back.
May 19 at 4:27pm · Like · 1 -
John D RemfI realized I may not have been totally clear about my Gen 2 issues. Those mags still worked, even with the cracked lips. I just set them aside not wanting to take the chance they would fail mechanically.
May 19 at 4:28pm · Edited · Like · 3 -
Chris KroppSFARTAEC instructor I know does not like poly mags for field use. They just were not reliable/durable enough over the long haul. For domestic/CONUS use probably not a problem.
May 19 at 4:29pm · Like -
Matt LandfairI would call BS on that if he is referring to Pmags. Invite him here.
May 19 at 4:30pm · Like · 6 -
Chris Hill^ hmmm I've had a bazillion more failures in beat up usgi mags than Pmags. I'm seriously not seeing where these dudes get their data. They sound like the guys that don't want to run poly frame guns
May 19 at 4:30pm · Like · 4 -
Duane LiptakI hate to be a PMAG whore, and yes, I have a vested interest, but I've seen USGI testing from my time at Brownells, and I've seen every single magazine on the market tested here. I freaking believe because of what I've seen. Even the latest and greatest that you'll see spouting their qualities on forums, or whatever. You'll see backyard drop tests touting one mag over another with a full 30 rounds of function testing....That's shit. FUNCTION. It has to work, over thousands of rounds. "I made it through 3 mags full with no stoppages". Great. your mag is likely at least 100 rounds MRBF.
May 19 at 4:30pm · Unlike · 11 -
Shane FitchHey, I idnt say a PMAG couldnt do it, I was just trying to help out. smile emoticon
May 19 at 4:32pm · Like -
Dan KempShane, Matt, I thought that's why Gerbers and other multitools had needlenose pliers- getting the bolt back when you can't get your fingers in through the ejection port smile emoticon
May 19 at 4:33pm · Like · 1 -
Duane LiptakOnce again, Chris, I'm betting it wasn't PMAGs or he had an experience with mag catch wear or feed lip issues from a bad batch of the old FDE mags, which we told SF not to buy. Guaranteed not an issue, especially with GEN M3, and reliability was never an issue with any of our mags.
May 19 at 4:33pm · Unlike · 5 -
Chris KroppMaybe that was the case, I'll ask him for more details but the bottom line is this guy goes through more mags or sees more mags fired in a week than most people do in a year. I trust Pmags personally.
May 19 at 4:34pm · Like · 2 -
Matt LandfairIf he doesn't like FB - the forum works too. We have data provided posted there.
May 19 at 4:35pm · Like -
Duane LiptakWe have fielded entire units within SOCOM with GEN M3 mags as field trials, for free, and nothing but smiles during extremely high round count evolutions over the last several years. And we destroy over 10,000 magazines per year, plus we fire hundreds and hundreds of thousands of rounds per year, in lab and field settings, just internally. Try the Gen M3....first one's free....smile emoticon
May 19 at 4:38pm · Like · 7 -
Chris KroppDuane, what about Gen 2's?
May 19 at 4:42pm · Like -
Chris CliftonFirst ones free.....that's what your dealer always hooks you with
May 19 at 4:45pm · Unlike · 7 -
Harry RogersFought a long battle in 3CR on FT Hood.
Regimental CSM put out a decree that all Soldiers use issued metal mags, no exceptions....See More
May 19 at 4:47pm · Unlike · 10 -
Ethan MajorEvery magazine related failure I've had has been with an older (green or black follower) USGI mag. The newer ones with the tan follower have been okay but I still prefer my PMAGs. One of my biggest reasons is that the feed lips on an aluminum mag can bend without me being able to tell the difference. If the feed lips on one of my PMAGs were to fail I would be able to identify it fairly quickly.
May 19 at 4:49pm · Unlike · 2 -
Harry RogersMine were tan followers
May 19 at 4:49pm · Like -
Duane LiptakGen M2s are GTG, especially when we switched to the new material across the board when the M3 came out. Reliability is neck and neck, with the M2 as or more reliable as the USGI at its best and the M3 pretty much flawless, like it's insane how flawless. M3 is slightly more impact resistant, especially below zero, Sand M3 is most impact resistant of all.
May 19 at 4:49pm · Like · 3 -
Duane LiptakThat's the melting BS that the old guard tried to use with ZERO real facts behind it. Cookoff temps are about 550 or so. We burn above 800 degrees, and we don't sustain combustion well, even when you use a torch...too much reinforcement. So the rounds in the mag would cook off before the mag burned. We don't even really soften until cookoff temps.
May 19 at 4:54pm · Unlike · 6 -
Harry RogersEthan Garrity,
my brand new mags i procured from the Arms Room.
The reliability was......less than ideal.
May 19 at 4:56pm · Like · 1 -
Duane LiptakThere's a vuurwapon or however you spell it test where they do mag dumps for 500 rounds at a time, then dump the gun into a mud puddle. This was from Pmags, and over thousands of rounds of TULA ammo, they had one stoppage, a failure to eject. And, doing 500 roudns at a pop, using GEN 2 PMAGs, although the gas tube got hot enough to catch the hand guard on fire (over 1000 degrees) (HG are not made of the same material as mags, either) and the PMAGS were just fine. Sooooo....if you intend to do 500 round mag dumps, your PMAGs will still be fine.
May 19 at 5:01pm · Unlike · 3 -
Ethan MajorI have a bunch of those from last deployment.. They're okay. There was at least one I had an issue with but they're all in the "training only" pile. This deployment we got issued brand "new" (still in the packaging) mags with green followers. They match our M16A2s great though!
May 19 at 5:02pm · Like · 6 -
Duane LiptakThat's the other thing, Harry...we've seen some really crazy bad USGI mags, from the govt contractor. No guarantee what you're getting out of the bag.
May 19 at 5:03pm · Like · 1 -
Harry RogersDon't wanna clash
May 19 at 5:03pm · Like -
Aaron WilliamsThe latest gen Pmags are fine on the 416s. Haven't run the new drum on them but I hear they run well. The HK mags are bulletproof in the second gen with the spring upgrades and I prefer them over anything minus the weight. The lancer mags are crap in the hk suppressed. We had them have issues constantly because the lancers couldn't keep up with the bolt speed
May 19 at 5:06pm · Like · 1 -
Harry RogersOne of the biggest issues I've seen is exactly what guys like Lamb / Panone warn about. Units:
1: don't treat mags the way they're supposed to be treated--like disposable items. They constantly recycle / abuse them. USGI simply doesn't stand up to that abuse....See More
May 19 at 5:07pm · Like · 10 -
Ethan MajorI've brought up the fact that the majority of the magazines used at the qual range at Bliss were junk or soon would be with the way kids were loading them.. I don't know what I'm talking about though because I'm just a National Guard medic. Oh and if I don't dump at least 3 squirts of CLP through my ejection port my rifle will jam...
May 19 at 5:10pm · Like · 4 -
Mitchell NicholasI like the the PMAGs, but they don't allow me to secure my work rifle into the approved vehicle rack. This forces me to us the USGI pattern mags. I like the BCM branded ones with the upgraded followers installed.
May 19 at 5:15pm · Like · 2 -
Dan KempEthan, if I see a black follower USGI mag, it is an immediate candidate for a Magpul follower and a new spring, then it goes in my Fourth String Spares box.
May 19 at 5:15pm · Like · 6 -
Matt LandfairMitchell- have you considered a usgi in the gun and pmags as your extras?
May 19 at 5:17pm · Like · 2 -
Jim DavisI remember the early pmags with the slicker finish and different texture pattern having some issues. This was around the same time that people thought that steel HK were great. The TigerSwan cadre wasn't big on PMAGs or HK mags then either. What was the dudes years of service/exposure to them? I get it if it was 8 years ago or so...
May 19 at 5:19pm · Unlike · 2 -
Kenneth JosephI heard Pat Mac say the same thing about only using USGI mags now.
May 19 at 5:21pm · Like · 1 -
Mitchell NicholasMatt Landfair that's what i do, use the USGI for the rack, all others are PMAGS.
May 19 at 5:21pm · Edited · Unlike · 4 -
Mat BakerWhat about the Israeli E-Lander mags? I have some but haven't run them hard.
May 19 at 5:35pm · Like -
Chris KroppTalked with the owner of the company I work for who is on active duty as an 18Z. His last deployment was OEF 20 (last year) in an operational capacity and he used Pmags without issue.
May 19 at 5:38pm · Like · 1 -
Michael StachI will never trust HK mags to take recoil after they blew out the baseplates from M203 recoil. I don't care if they supposedly fixed it. They are heavy as shit, can't change parts and they rust like hell.
May 19 at 5:38pm · Unlike · 2 -
Long TranI have a couple Lancer Mags, a couple Hexmags, and the rest are all the new USGI anti tilt mags. Also have about 2 pmags only because of the monopod option for photos. I've never had an issue with USGI, only pmags. Plus I can drop a USGI mag and not worry about spending $10-15 on it. The only reason I have Lancers is because I can see the round count easily, the only reason I have hexmags is because I am a dealer for them and the indicators on the bottom.
May 19 at 5:42pm · Like -
Matt LandfairLong - you seem to be in a small minority in this aspect.
May 19 at 5:49pm · Like -
Long TranMatt Landfair seems that way smile emoticon
May 19 at 5:51pm · Like -
Long TranI have the orange/tan followers from Okay Industries. I just spray painted them black instead of even Cerakote. Never had a failure to feed and they have fit in every lower I've ever tried. I cannot say the same for pmags.
May 19 at 5:52pm · Like -
Matt LandfairAnd keep in mind most of the feedback is professional use and user, so this is a life dependent discussion
May 19 at 5:54pm · Like · 1 -
Chris CliftonI don't trust anything Israeli
May 19 at 5:57pm · Unlike · 4 -
Alex YuamI prefer PMAGs. Everything about them is just easier - disassembly, loading.
Reliability is top notch. I've had USGI mags fail to keep up with the cyclic speed of a slightly over-gassed AR but the PMAG (M3) spring had no problems. ...See More
May 19 at 5:58pm · Unlike · 2 -
Long TranI totally understand and thats why I have my Lancers and Hexmags for those specific purposes. I can see what ammo I have left and I can see what ammo is in each mag. All the metal ones are for everything afterwards. I apparently agree with the original post's friend. Of course if you have polymer in your plate carrier, it'll feel better falling on them then metal but then again, I've never been overseas or have the experience that many of the other posters may have. I'm just posting my experience and why I agree with his friend. As far as them bending and so forth, that's why I have so many that I can use and drop and not worry about it.
May 19 at 6:00pm · Edited · Like -
Roland DeschaintullOK.... break break break.
Let's talk about the history of the USGI mag for a second. Prior to the war, 6 companies were given contract for USGI mags. They all came to a central location and were put into govt NSN shrink wrap and sent out to the unit...See More
May 19 at 6:04pm · Edited · Unlike · 33 -
Long TranGreat info.
May 19 at 6:04pm · Like -
Steven McCarrollI love Pmags. I run them in my ar-10, ar-15 and my m85. My favorite thing about pmags? When I sold them for 40$ each after obama was elected, twice.
May 19 at 6:04pm · Like · 9 -
Dan KempRoland, I will repeat something I said earlier. I hope you took good notes and don't take any hard blows to the head. Because when all this shit slows down someday, I want to pick your brain, Canipe's brain, Dave Davis' brain, and so on, and write a book on The Small Arms History of the GWOT.
May 19 at 7:21pm · Unlike · 10 -
Matt LandfairThat sounds like a good comprehensive forum post
May 19 at 7:23pm · Like · 3 -
Matt JamesTagged
May 19 at 7:31pm · Like -
Duane LiptakRoland brings up a very critical point--when you say "USGI Mag" that is indeed a generic term that could mean a lot of things. Some work very well within correct parameters. Some we won't even use for testing because it negatively skews the results of what a good USGI mag can do. If you choose to use USGI, just be an informed consumer, and "having a military contract" is not the gold standard.
May 19 at 7:51pm · Unlike · 13 -
Yee-min LinSure it is duane, no way any DoD acquisitions contract wouldn't have the appropriate specifications and KPPs defined, along with a robust and objective operational test and evaluation protocol for initial fielding as well as spot testing for all qualified vendors. smile emoticon
May 19 at 7:55pm · Like · 1 -
David MerrillMags are consumables. Regardless of which ones you use, PMCS them and toss them if they fail. Easy peazy.
May 19 at 8:04pm · Like · 6 -
Matt LandfairEven being consumable - why go with anything less than the best when it is so affordable?
May 19 at 8:08pm · Like · 5 -
Chris CliftonMaybe the shooter has a polymer allergy
May 19 at 8:09pm · Unlike · 3 -
Yee-min LinBecause contracting said so is the usual answer. And most units don't have the cojones to say "fuck you contracting, we have a legitimate reason why not to use what you said."
Easy when the money was flowing all over the place with OCO funds, go back to pre-OEF/OIF funding levels, and we'll go right back to keeping broke ass mags just to stay SL-3 complete.
May 19 at 8:16pm · Like · 4 -
Roland DeschaintullEven the worst USGI 5.56mm mags were not as bad as the abortion that was the M9 9mm mags. Someone should have been criminally charged over that shit. But I digress.
May 19 at 8:23pm · Like · 13 -
Yee-min LinWe actually used m9 mags? I thought I just carried them around to look like an officer. smile emoticon
May 19 at 8:30pm · Like · 3 -
Andrew GoldenRick Yates, was this conversation with GC?
May 19 at 8:31pm · Like · 1 -
David MerrillMain issue with USGI mags is that they're kept far beyond their usable service life. Before OIF 1 I was issued a mag that was very likely older than I am.
May 19 at 8:34pm · Like · 6 -
Matt GröschWas just looking for 1911 info a day or two ago and ran across claims of lav and falla only using gi mags, curious if valid or internot
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=341656
Larry Vickers on which AR15 and accessories. - 1911Forum
Larry Vickers on which AR15 and accessories. General Rifles and Shotguns
FORUMS.1911FORUM.COM
May 19 at 8:35pm · Like · 1 · Remove Preview -
Tim ChandlerAll magazines are disposable wear items. Use them enough and you'll break them. It's odd to see how folks struggle with that. All of that being said, I've broken fewer PMags than I have USGI aluminum ones.
May 19 at 8:38pm · Edited · Like · 5 -
Matt StutzenburgAnd this is the kind of political BS that has a buddy popping smoke out of ODA...
May 19 at 8:36pm · Edited · Like · 4 -
Duane LiptakHoly necro thread, Matt. Some guys have preferences. Some guys like the slimmer profile of USGI, some guys used good USGI mags through their professional career. Some guys wrote off anything new due to early limitations with first gen PMAGs. I, myself, didn't trust the idea of a polymer magazine when they first came out. I deployed with Okay USGI with Magpul followers. I worked for a manufacturer of USGI magazines at Brownells, and used them there, because that's what I knew and what I trusted...with Magpul followers. I messed with PMAGs and never had an issue, but saw no reason to switch from USGI then...you'd run a mag, and when you had a mag related stoppage, or multiple stoppages of any kind on a mag, I'd ditch it. It wasn't until I saw the testing and started running PMAGs--I was initially an EMAG guy...I liked the form factor--but hey...those stoppages that would cause me to DRMO a mag? No more. So I was sold. And it's just gone better from there with the GEN M3 and ongoing research. So I don't think it's bad to use USGI. I just don't want to deal with the limitations anymore.
May 19 at 9:15pm · Unlike · 7 -
Keith DenmanI still have my original Pmags in the rotation that have had the crap beat out of them. Still working just fine. All I run.
May 19 at 9:17pm · Like -
Steven McCarrollDuane Liptak stop replying to this thread and make me a magpul 870 stock along the lines of the speedfeed ones.
May 19 at 9:21pm · Like · 4 -
Matt Grösch^^ thanks, magpul may be my favorite-run company and I'm going to keep buying them
May 19 at 9:28pm · Unlike · 3 -
Christopher SaintIn DeHavenI witnessed a shooting partner's poly mag break when loading. The lip snapped off as he was inserting the it in the mag well. No bueno. Especially considering that you're unlikely to perform a smooth, suave mag change under duress.
May 19 at 9:50pm · Like -
Mat BakerWhat I take from all of this is that opinions on mags ranks right up there with caliber wars....how many fairies can dance on the head of a pin?
May 19 at 9:52pm · Like · 3 -
Christopher SaintIn DeHavenUh. 3. Come on man...everyone knows that one....
May 19 at 9:53pm · Like · 2 -
Matt LandfairNot all poly mags are equal.
May 19 at 9:58pm · Like · 2 -
Yee-min LinSome poly mags are more equal than others.
May 19 at 10:00pm · Like · 3 -
Tyler WhiteNo use both.
May 19 at 10:01pm · Edited · Like -
Rick YatesMan. I shouldn't have posted this before I went to bed (night shift). Now i have a eleventy billion post to go back and read. Haha
May 19 at 10:01pm · Unlike · 5 -
Shane FitchChristopher DeHaven, What brand were the magazines?
May 20 at 2:17am · Unlike · 1 -
Chris Hill"My friends stuff broke once in deployment/training so PMAGS/USGI mags blow"
Really? How bout if you haven't been out there running the shit out of both types you just sit indian style and everyone else sort shit out. Why does anyone HERE care about anything but which mag runs the best. Seriously. The mags are better because science so yea stfu about how you brother cousin's gun went down in a firefight in ramadi because his plastic mag got dusty and started melting.
May 20 at 6:14am · Edited · Like · 1 -
Joshua BullardI use both and like both. I have a preference for Magpul mags. I find them durable and trustworthy as far as function. I can make the metal mags work well without issue, but it can end up costing me a little more (I don't have a problem with that). I have had a firearm that didn't like pmags (SCAR). I was real early on getting the SCAR and they had an issue where the pmag had some material in a place where a metal mag doesn't and the SCAR bolt would catch it. It was an easy fix. I've also used the Lancer mags with good results.
May 20 at 6:25am · Like -
Duane LiptakJoshua, SCAR compatibility was another thing we changed when going to the M3, so if you need more SCAR Mags, the M3s won't have to be modified. Team FNH USA uses all M3 mags in their SCARs.
May 20 at 6:34am · Like · 7 -
Gary HughesI like the kind that boolits come out of good and the shutty thing on the gun don't get stuck on.
May 20 at 6:51am · Like · 8 -
Rick YatesThat's the 30 caliber clip kind Gary
May 20 at 6:59am · Like · 2 -
Grant TimberlakeRick Yates, I have come across quite a few folks that have gone back to "certain" USGI mags. Some of them would be Vickers, Pannone, D4 and McNamara. Many of them like the D&H mags with a Magpul follower in them (which is also my persona favorite configuration). I have had issues with PMAG's, the early AWM mags and of course a wide variety of USGI mag. I have also had good luck with the new HK Polymer mags.http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi... The best advice is to pick up several different mags and try them in your AR. THEN, choose the ones that work best in your setup.
HK 30rd Polymer 416 MR556 Magazine at G and R Tactical
HK 30rd Polymer 416 MR556 Magazine
GANDRTACTICAL.COM
May 20 at 7:24am · Edited · Like · 1 · Remove Preview -
Joshua BullardDuane, thank you. No issues now. It was an easy fix and life is good. Thank you for the info.
May 20 at 7:36am · Like -
Steve FisherDear god really
Welcome to the Internet
May 20 at 7:38am · Like · 5 -
Matt Grösch^^^ in related news, everyone is now debating grabbing at least one hk mag,
May 20 at 7:40am · Like -
John D RemfNot me. The FN steel mag is superior to the HK. Im working on making this the .45 vs 9mm debate of the future. I'm not having a lot of luck so far.
May 20 at 7:56am · Edited · Like · 1 -
Grant TimberlakeI don't think I have ever heard anyone have any kind of real positive experiences with HK METAL mags (even the GEN 2's). Is this the norm or are there people out there that have a good opinion of them??
May 20 at 8:03am · Like -
Aaron WilliamsThe 2nd generation hk mags are bulletproof. That being said you pay for that in weight.
I've run hundreds of thousands of rounds on them with no issues that normal life cycle maintenance doesn't alleviate. That being said I don't pay for mine so if I was a LE end user they may not make sense for your needs.
May 20 at 8:15am · Like -
Grant TimberlakeInteresting Aaron. I rarely come across anyone with real round counts on them.
May 20 at 8:22am · Like -
Tore HaugliI still have the original ones I was issued in 2008, and no issue.
Never saw any real issues with my soldiers' mags either, over 5 years....See More
May 20 at 8:29am · Edited · Like -
Tore HaugliAnd just to expound on my statement, this mag is used service wide in the Norwegian mil, used across a wide variety of climates and temps - from arctic to jungle to desert. It has seen combat in Afgh from 2008 to present.
May 20 at 8:47am · Like · 1 -
Aaron WilliamsI believe the AF dated and after are the corrected second gen but I'm not 100%
May 20 at 9:05am · Like -
Alex YuamI've always heard (metal) HK mags tend to have weak springs. Can anyone shed some light on this?
Also how about the polymer HK mags?
May 20 at 1:10pm · Like -
Matt LeviI ended up with a Gen 2 HK mag in a trade, it ran better than USGI style magazines. No idea who made the USGI mags I have. To get all of them to run, I had to put Magpul followers/springs in them.
May 20 at 1:25pm · Like · 2 -
Grant TimberlakeAlex, the GEN 2's have the improved springs. The polymer mags are GTG for me.
May 20 at 1:38pm · Like · 1 -
Tore HaugliWhat was the issue with the Gen 1 mag springs? Were they weak, or did they weaken quickly?
May 20 at 1:48pm · Edited · Like -
Roland DeschaintullWho knows, testing does not normally determine cause of malfunctions rather the test plan logs the malfunction rate across multiple test guns. Gen1 mags had the same rate of stoppages as colt Mags until higher round counts were achieved, (thousands of rounds) then the Pmag failure rate increased at a faster rate than Colt.
May 20 at 2:03pm · Like · 4 -
John ChapmanWho cares is the main question. M4 magazines are like strippers; as soon as you trust one your wallet is empty and your car us wrapped around a telephone pole. Magazines are disposable; as soon as you have the slightest reason to distrust it, change the locks on your apartment... I mean throw it away.
May 24 at 2:48pm · Unlike · 35 -
Pat RogersTo add to what Brother Chappy said.
I have been using the M16 FOW since 1967, and all of the permutations since, so...
Magazines are not life partners.
I have said about 11433 times- don't fall in love with your mags.
If they fail 2x (and this is why we mark mags- utilize hammer therapy.
I have run a lot of different mags, and have seen more.
Some- like the highly touted KK mag from a long time ago got a lot of love (and even from me).
But they turned out to suck at the same rate as GI mags.
I have been using PMAG's since the first prototype uo until what is current.
Yup, after a lot of use some feed lips cracked on some early ones (talking 5k or more), but at a rate similar to new GI mags.
I have neen using TangoDown ARC mags since the prototypes, and yup, saw a few of them with feed lip issues early on.
The trick here is to understand that nothing is forewver.
Those mags i use for Forcepro are run once or twice, loaded and set in the gun.
I'll rotate them (and the ammo) maybe once a year.
The rest?
Yeah, we run them till they poop the sheets.
I run 3 magazines religiously now (and in no order)
PMAG
ARC Mag
D&H Mags.
I have complete faith in them, in my guns.
I have been playing with some of the Beretta steel mags, which appear to be very good, but not enough to make statements about.
Chappy comment about strippers are appropriate.
May 24 at 4:10pm · Unlike · 15 -
Michael LaBonteI prefer Magpul magazines over USGI.
May 24 at 5:17pm · Like -
Pat RogersRe breaking while loading...
A long time ago, the place where i was working received 30 Colt 727's, each with 13 mags.
We started loading mags to test fire the guns, and the tabs holding the floor plates started breaking. We went through about 20 when we stopped, and sent the lot back to Colt.
We know Colt doesn't make magazines (though some will swear it) but the point is this.
Nothing is perfect. No gun. No cartridge. No aircraft. No car.
No person.
One means nothing
May 24 at 7:02pm · Edited · Unlike · 12 -
Roddy McCaskill Jr.US gi mags were designed to be disposable, not re used long term
May 24 at 7:05pm · Unlike · 5 -
John WellsYep I have a shit ton of both polymer and metal mags. First sign one gives me problems out the door it goes into the trash. These days you can pick them up for cheap and stack them deep.
May 25 at 12:19am · Edited · Unlike · 4 -
Jade SladeAll mags that work are good. I have PMags, USGI mags, Surefire mags, a new Lantac I haven't tried. If they don't work, they get an x and put in xbox. then out if can't be fixed.
May 25 at 7:48am · Like