Pistol RDS in 2022

[Smith]

When I first started getting into this a year or two ago, it seemed the game was either RMR or Holosun. Recently, a lot of nice optics have come out, especially enclosed. I'm kinda thinking, why wouldn't I take enclosed? Yea it looks a bit bulkier, but functionally I don't see a downside.

The Acro P-2 is out, seemingly having fixed all the flaws of the previous one. Holosun came out with some new ones, one all-solar system, and the fully enclosed EPS (the main USP seems to be that it sits so low you don't even need suppressor height sights?). There's even the Steiner MPS, which looks very cool.

So what are people getting these days?

 

[Royroy]

So I have acquired quite a few different pistol red dots over the last couple of years. I have a couple 507c’s, a 508t, a couple 509t’s, several RMR’s, a SRO, and the Steiner MPS. I would have a P2 but they still seem to be unobtanium. For a duty type capacity I prefer enclosed. For concealed carry I love my SRO. I find that the window size and shape just makes it so much easier to get the dot and track it through recoil. I’ve put a SRO in new red dot shooters hands and compared to other models they were able to find the dot much easier with no training. MPS vs 509 I don’t have enough time with the MPS. I like all of my 509’s but they definitely have some distortion in the glass (I only have the first Gens, but the seconds gens I’ve seen weren’t any better.) The MPS turrets are way more tactile than the 509 and I find the dot to be cleaner. Holosun has shake awake and the MPS does not. 508 vs RMR I would go with the RMR for duty use. The 508ts are pretty durable and the side load battery is nice for zeroing purposes. The 507’s I just have on range toys or offset red dots on rifles. I got the 508t x2 green dot. Idk why but in certain lighting I get an awful reflection on the inner lens. I sent it back to Holosun and they replaced it no problem. The new one still has the same reflection. My buddy has one and his doesn’t have that issue so I guess it’s luck of the draw. As far as the why I don’t typically enclosed for concealed is just the size and printing with the setups I have and how I carry. The new smaller enclosed Holosun could be a good option, but I don’t have any hands on experience with one. I still think I would take my SRO over the smaller enclosed option.

 

[Smith]

Awesome, thanks for the report!

I haven't seen the new low-profile Holosun EPS in any of the stores, although it's supposed to be out this year. I've seen the solar-only one (SCS?) on Big Tex I think, but I'm skeptical of solar-only plus it's not enclosed. It is also low-profile, though, which is cool. Would love if all newer dots simply became so low-profile we don't need suppressor-height sights any longer.

Interesting that you mention your 509 x2 doesn't have less distortion on the lens, I just saw a YT review claiming theirs was noticeably better. So maybe Holosun just has a lot of variance between individual units.

I'd be really interested in the Vulcan "big circle" that Holosun has on SOME but not most models. Seems like a great idea, both for beginners and for being in that "stressful situation." I've become pretty competent at presenting and the dot being "just there," but on occasion I get a 1-2s "oh shit where is it?" freeze-up. This has happened especially in competitions or other more stressful situations vs. just practice in dry fire or at the range. So if I ever actually got into a self-defense situation, having that big circle would be very comforting.

When my Holosun just went out after firing a shot at the range, I fished for the dot for a minute before realizing it just wasn't there anymore. The circle would've made that obvious. In a real-life situation I would've really preferred knowing my optic simply failed instead of trying to get it back forever. I suppose in a real shooting you'd immediately jump to the backup irons, but still. Now that's another thing I have to train for.

Unfortunately, it seems Holosun isn't using the Vulcan big circle on any of their newer models.

I think the 509 is pretty interesting, especially because it offers a green variant. But I suspect that both the Acro P-2 and the Steiner MPS would just be "higher quality" in the sense of not as much variance between units, cleaner dot, less distortion. Maybe more reliable, too. I've only had one dot, a Holosun, and it failed (completely dead, had to send it in) within ~5,000 rounds. Now I've heard others say their Holosun is just as reliable as anything, and any dot can break. Still, feels bad, man.

 

[Royroy]

That’s an interesting point and I’m not sure how you would train for your dot failing mid string of fire. If that’s real world I’m thinking it’s just your day and distance and time are going to be a huge factor. Inside 7 there’s a bunch of alternative aiming methods that are pretty effective, and front sight in the window is close enough for center mass hits. Low percentage shots or where distance is going to be a factor I think it’s going to take a while to realize that your dot failed. Like the recent mall shooting if your taking 40 yard shots my brain would be yelling where did the dot go. Sage Dynamics has a good white paper that covers failures of multiple different red dots if you haven’t checked it out.

As far as the ACSS Vulcan reticle I believe that is a product of Primary Arms and the Holosun products with that reticle are a collaboration. The 100 moa circle is neat, but I don’t care for the chevron. One of my 507c’s has that reticle. I think I would like it more with the big circle and just a 2 moa dot. They offer a 509 with the acss reticle but it is slightly different in size so you may have to get a different adapter plate.

 

[Smith]

Thanks, good idea. I just checked the SD whitepaper and he hasn't put the reliability of either the Steiner nor the Acro P-2 in there. I watched both his videos on them though, and they both passed his reliability/drop tests with no issues.

I agree on the chevron - 2moa dot + 100moa fishnet would be amazing.

 

[rudukai13]

All of the enclosed-emitter pistol optics currently available are top-tier parts, you can’t go wrong with any of them. They all survived Aaron Cowan’s review process and gained his stamp of approval, except the EPS and EPS Carry, which are too new for him to have reviewed thoroughly yet. That said though every other Holosun product has been top-tier so no reason to believe the EPS optics wouldn’t be as well. Which one you go with really comes down to personal preference, but buy with confidence

 

[Smith]

We truly live in the golden age for handguns, and it might just get goldener Except if these supply chain issues keep persisting.

 

[spectrain]

I'd agree with the earlier sentiment that there are great options on both sides of the fence and it really comes down to preference.

I personally don't see much of a reason to consider enclosed emitter a requirement. This opinion just comes from spending a lot of time shooting RMR's and SRO's in the rain and not having a real issue. It also comes from acknowledging that enclosed emitters will potentially also have droplets sitting on both lenses to look through.

Another thought to consider is that if you are working with sub-par glass it will be worse with two layers than just one to look through. This has certainly been my experience with the 509-t. Now I just mentioned this to my holosun guy and he claims they have greatly improved this distortion on later versions of the 509 which I apparently don't have, so he is supposed to be sending me a new one. Regardless, I run 509's on my rifles and it doesn't bother me, but does seem to bother me a lot more on Pistol's, mostly likely due to more movement under recoil. This issue doesn't seem to be present with the aimpoint or steiner for obvious reasons.

The kicker for me is that I really prefer my optics to ride the balance of durability vs having a thin unobtrusive bezel that doesn't block much FOV. For me the SRO does this perfectly, while the P2 and MPS are pretty blocky.

Regarding the reticle discussion... For what it's worth my opinion is coming from a Carry Optics GM. Although various reticles might offer initial advantages at lower levels of skill, I don't know a single top shooter who likes anything other than a standard dot on a pistol. Also, 100% of the top shooters I know that like a circle/dot on a rifle were issued/forced to run eotechs at some point and just got used to that which is fine. My contention would be that at higher levels visual focus and processing speed becomes the skill that really sets shooters apart, and that as long as you understand how to use a dot properly anything else bouncing around inside your window under recoil is straight up visual distraction. I would also say that reticles like the vulcan are an attempt to solve a software problem with a hardware solution.

 

[Default.mp3]

I high level CO shooter I know said this:

I think a single dot rules for competition, where shot calling is so important, but the circle is very desirable where your targets don't give you an opportunity to pick what hand your shoot with, what the sun angle is, and provide a chance to adjust your dot intensity during "make ready!"

I personally believe that an enclosed emitter should be given high priority for duty use, given the environmental issues, not just of water, but also fogging, debris, etc. For water, the issue for me isn't it getting on the lens, but on the emitter; this can be mitigated through designed (i.e., the RMR design seems much less susceptible to water staying on the emitter compared to the DPP, according to several folks I've talked to that have used both). Same with the fogging, where the emitter getting fogged up will make the optic all but useless.

 

[rudukai13]

We truly live in the golden age for handguns, and it might just get goldener Except if these supply chain issues keep persisting.

Pistol optics have had several generations to mature and become practically reliable and rugged enough, but in the grand scheme of things pistol-mounted RDS is still a technology in relative infancy. We’re basically in the era equivalent to the late ‘90s for rifle RDS, and you can see how much progress has been made in that arena over the last two decades.

I honestly think we’ll be seeing very sci-fi-esque pistol aiming solutions in about ten years

 

[Smith]

I think a single dot rules for competition, where shot calling is so important, but the circle is very desirable where your targets don't give you an opportunity to pick what hand your shoot with, what the sun angle is, and provide a chance to adjust your dot intensity during "make ready!"

Yea, this is my concern. It might be a hardware solution to a software problem, but it's probably ok to have a hardware backstop to my software suddenly failing under the stress of a life-threatening encounter. Was your training good enough to acquire the dot when threatened with deadly force? You don't know until you know. Just for that, having the backstop of the Vulcan system seems like a great idea. I suppose just jumping to the backup irons would do it as well, but that involves a conscious decision to "give up" on the dot, and I'm not sure I would make that decision correctly and quickly enough under intense stress.